1 00:00:56,839 --> 00:01:02,714 I am here because... I recognize... 2 00:01:02,758 --> 00:01:07,110 in my life there has been a major imbalance, 3 00:01:07,154 --> 00:01:11,114 mainly caused by what I have done 4 00:01:11,158 --> 00:01:13,812 in a criminal way. 5 00:01:13,856 --> 00:01:16,380 I want to promise myself 6 00:01:16,424 --> 00:01:19,166 that this is going to be the most honest 7 00:01:19,209 --> 00:01:21,994 confession of my life, 8 00:01:22,038 --> 00:01:25,389 and in doing that, 9 00:01:25,433 --> 00:01:29,480 I need to make the long journey backwards 10 00:01:29,524 --> 00:01:31,482 to understand what I did, 11 00:01:31,526 --> 00:01:35,138 to acknowledge that, 12 00:01:35,182 --> 00:01:38,359 in some way to make reparation for it, 13 00:01:38,402 --> 00:01:41,623 and to let those whom I have offended 14 00:01:41,666 --> 00:01:45,583 know that, if possible. 15 00:01:45,627 --> 00:01:47,498 Basically what I want to say to them is, you know, 16 00:01:47,542 --> 00:01:49,021 it should not have happened. 17 00:01:49,065 --> 00:01:52,112 It should not have happened. 18 00:02:14,351 --> 00:02:17,093 When I saw him the first time, 19 00:02:17,137 --> 00:02:20,531 oh, I think it was love at first sight. 20 00:02:20,575 --> 00:02:22,881 I agree. I really do. 21 00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,188 It was easy to talk to her. 22 00:02:25,232 --> 00:02:28,148 It must be. We've been together 41 years now. 23 00:02:30,802 --> 00:02:33,718 But he wasn't really practicing Buddhism. 24 00:02:33,762 --> 00:02:35,851 He used to go with me to church. 25 00:02:35,894 --> 00:02:38,114 Yeah. Before I even met you, 26 00:02:38,158 --> 00:02:40,595 I think I used to go to the chapel, 27 00:02:40,638 --> 00:02:43,250 just for peace and quiet, you know, so-- 28 00:02:43,293 --> 00:02:45,469 but then I still had to go to Ireland 29 00:02:45,513 --> 00:02:47,993 and talk to Maria's dad and ask for her hand. 30 00:02:48,037 --> 00:02:49,691 By then you were baptized. Yeah. 31 00:02:49,734 --> 00:02:52,346 I think that was a big concern for my family. 32 00:02:52,389 --> 00:02:57,307 We got married December 26, 1964. 33 00:02:57,351 --> 00:03:00,484 I told Maria, I said, "Would you like to go to the States?" 34 00:03:00,528 --> 00:03:01,746 It was a big step, 35 00:03:01,790 --> 00:03:03,531 but, you know, I was willing 36 00:03:03,574 --> 00:03:05,402 to go anywhere Bob was going. 37 00:03:05,446 --> 00:03:06,447 Yeah. 38 00:03:06,490 --> 00:03:10,277 Ann was born May 9, 1966. 39 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,279 Yeah, a bundle of joy, really. 40 00:03:12,322 --> 00:03:13,715 She really was. Yeah. 41 00:03:13,758 --> 00:03:15,630 'Cause Bob was working 12 hours a day. 42 00:03:15,673 --> 00:03:17,893 We'd get dressed up, and we'd go outside 43 00:03:17,936 --> 00:03:20,112 and wait for Bob when he was coming home. 44 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:21,418 Oh, she'd say, "Hi, Daddy," 45 00:03:21,462 --> 00:03:23,638 and give me a hug and kiss, you know. 46 00:03:23,681 --> 00:03:25,553 She was a perfect little lady, you know. 47 00:03:25,596 --> 00:03:27,076 You could take her anyplace. 48 00:03:27,119 --> 00:03:28,643 In her own little way, 49 00:03:28,686 --> 00:03:30,427 she was taking care of me. 50 00:03:30,471 --> 00:03:32,951 So then I went to work one day a week, 51 00:03:32,995 --> 00:03:35,389 and then we decided we'd buy a house-- this one. 52 00:03:35,432 --> 00:03:36,651 This one here. 53 00:03:36,694 --> 00:03:39,219 The one and only house we bought. 54 00:03:39,262 --> 00:03:42,091 I was raised a really strict Catholic in Ireland. 55 00:03:42,134 --> 00:03:43,353 I mean, that was our life. 56 00:03:43,397 --> 00:03:44,354 Yeah, and-- 57 00:03:44,398 --> 00:03:46,269 There is no other religion. 58 00:03:46,313 --> 00:03:48,532 I thought she was a shining example 59 00:03:48,576 --> 00:03:50,055 of a good Catholic 60 00:03:50,099 --> 00:03:52,319 who had faith in her religion 61 00:03:52,362 --> 00:03:55,278 whether I accepted all the beliefs of the Catholic Church 62 00:03:55,322 --> 00:03:56,671 or not. 63 00:03:56,714 --> 00:03:58,325 But I believed something-- 64 00:03:58,368 --> 00:04:00,892 And, you know, you raise your kids that way, you know. 65 00:04:00,936 --> 00:04:02,198 That was part of our life. 66 00:04:02,242 --> 00:04:03,417 It was our life, actually. 67 00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:06,246 It sure was. I found peace there, 68 00:04:06,289 --> 00:04:09,510 and, you know, comfort, I guess. 69 00:04:29,094 --> 00:04:31,140 Some people are born to be leaders, 70 00:04:31,183 --> 00:04:33,490 some people are born to follow, et cetera, you know. 71 00:04:33,534 --> 00:04:35,797 I like-- I like helping people, 72 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:38,930 and, as one of my priest friends said to me once, 73 00:04:38,974 --> 00:04:40,497 he said, "You're a people person." 74 00:04:40,541 --> 00:04:42,238 And I think that helped a lot 75 00:04:42,282 --> 00:04:46,329 to say, "Hey, I finally reached what-- all I'd like to do. 76 00:04:46,373 --> 00:04:48,549 "I think this is what I want to do. 77 00:04:48,592 --> 00:04:50,812 I think this is what I'm called to do." 78 00:04:50,855 --> 00:04:53,031 I like to be with people. 79 00:04:53,075 --> 00:04:56,905 Uh, I felt I was good with people. 80 00:04:56,948 --> 00:04:58,472 I felt I was good with children. 81 00:04:58,515 --> 00:04:59,908 I've often asked myself, 82 00:04:59,951 --> 00:05:02,302 Why--Why did I... 83 00:05:02,345 --> 00:05:04,129 Why--Why do I like children so much? 84 00:05:04,173 --> 00:05:06,958 What--What do I want to do for them? 85 00:05:07,002 --> 00:05:09,352 I feel compassionate to children 86 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:11,354 that I see sort of cornered and-- 87 00:05:11,398 --> 00:05:15,576 who image what I was when I was their age, 88 00:05:15,619 --> 00:05:19,231 and did not have, um... 89 00:05:19,275 --> 00:05:21,277 somebody to turn to. 90 00:05:21,321 --> 00:05:24,062 I tend to want to reach out to people like that. 91 00:05:24,106 --> 00:05:26,674 First time we met him was in 1971. 92 00:05:26,717 --> 00:05:29,372 I was so excited to meet somebody from home. 93 00:05:29,416 --> 00:05:30,808 And I'd only been here, 94 00:05:30,852 --> 00:05:32,332 like, five years at that time. 95 00:05:32,375 --> 00:05:36,553 He would, uh, come and spend his days off here. 96 00:05:36,597 --> 00:05:39,991 Uh, he had a really strong Irish accent at that time, 97 00:05:40,035 --> 00:05:42,254 so we used to help him with his sermons, 98 00:05:42,298 --> 00:05:44,344 and Ann would go places with him. 99 00:05:44,387 --> 00:05:47,216 Ann Jyono. 100 00:05:47,259 --> 00:05:50,262 Little Ann, one of the first people I met there, 101 00:05:50,306 --> 00:05:51,742 or at least her parents. 102 00:05:51,786 --> 00:05:56,051 Her mother was Irish, father was Japanese-- 103 00:05:56,094 --> 00:05:58,358 of Japanese extraction, I think-- 104 00:05:58,401 --> 00:06:01,404 and was very welcome at their home 105 00:06:01,448 --> 00:06:05,452 for--for many, many years of my time in Lodi. 106 00:06:05,495 --> 00:06:10,282 I could, and was often invited to sleep over there. 107 00:06:10,326 --> 00:06:13,416 Perhaps that's where some of the problems began 108 00:06:13,460 --> 00:06:15,897 in that-- in Ann's situation. 109 00:06:21,468 --> 00:06:24,427 There are two types of people in the Church: 110 00:06:24,471 --> 00:06:28,605 the hierarchy in the sacred pastures, as they call them, 111 00:06:28,649 --> 00:06:31,129 who are picked out by God to lead, 112 00:06:31,173 --> 00:06:33,349 and the vast throng who are the lay people, 113 00:06:33,393 --> 00:06:36,787 and their duty obedient followers. 114 00:06:36,831 --> 00:06:38,354 It says that. 115 00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:40,312 The system, it's a monarchy. 116 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:43,185 All power rests in individuals, 117 00:06:43,228 --> 00:06:46,101 and so the system protects those individuals 118 00:06:46,144 --> 00:06:48,016 because it believes that that is the will 119 00:06:48,059 --> 00:06:50,148 of the higher power, of the Almighty: 120 00:06:50,192 --> 00:06:52,368 that He wants those individuals 121 00:06:52,412 --> 00:06:56,024 to be powerful in order to control 122 00:06:56,067 --> 00:06:58,940 this portion of reality called Earth. 123 00:06:58,983 --> 00:07:01,159 And that's, I think, is-- 124 00:07:01,203 --> 00:07:04,336 It may sound simplistic and like science fiction, 125 00:07:04,380 --> 00:07:06,382 but that, in fact, is what it is. 126 00:07:09,951 --> 00:07:12,606 I was, um... 127 00:07:12,649 --> 00:07:14,521 a student for eight years at Holy Spirit, 128 00:07:14,564 --> 00:07:17,088 which is in the Sacramento Diocese, 129 00:07:17,132 --> 00:07:20,135 and they had some kind of advertisement to Camp Pendola, 130 00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:22,920 and it was my first time ever going away to camp. 131 00:07:22,964 --> 00:07:25,488 None of my friends went to school there. 132 00:07:25,532 --> 00:07:27,969 Um, I didn't know anybody else there, 133 00:07:28,012 --> 00:07:30,624 and I actually wrote a letter to my mom 134 00:07:30,667 --> 00:07:32,277 that she had-- 135 00:07:32,321 --> 00:07:33,844 Um, on the back of the envelope, 136 00:07:33,888 --> 00:07:35,455 I said I met a new friend, 137 00:07:35,498 --> 00:07:37,239 and his name was Father O'Grady. 138 00:07:37,282 --> 00:07:39,720 I remember him coming on a sleep-over 139 00:07:39,763 --> 00:07:41,286 with the other girls, 140 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:43,158 and a couple of days later, 141 00:07:43,201 --> 00:07:45,552 the other girls breaking out with poison oak, 142 00:07:45,595 --> 00:07:47,815 and them telling me that I didn't have poison oak 143 00:07:47,858 --> 00:07:49,556 'cause I slept with Father. 144 00:07:52,559 --> 00:07:55,344 And I think the thing that I'm going to regret most 145 00:07:55,387 --> 00:07:57,520 is that I allowed myself 146 00:07:57,564 --> 00:08:01,002 to--just to cuddling Nancy inside her bed one night 147 00:08:01,045 --> 00:08:03,091 when she was visiting with me. 148 00:08:03,134 --> 00:08:07,443 I would...label it love and concern-- 149 00:08:07,487 --> 00:08:10,141 hugging, embracing. 150 00:08:10,185 --> 00:08:13,449 That-- That tended to, uh... 151 00:08:13,493 --> 00:08:17,235 satisfy me and... 152 00:08:17,279 --> 00:08:20,630 in a way that took care of my need 153 00:08:20,674 --> 00:08:23,677 to reach out to somebody, you know. 154 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,550 From there, I don't know how the relationship started, 155 00:08:27,594 --> 00:08:29,813 that he got my address, 156 00:08:29,857 --> 00:08:33,469 that he got in contact with my parents. 157 00:08:33,513 --> 00:08:36,733 He, um... 158 00:08:36,777 --> 00:08:39,475 came over to the house a couple of times. 159 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:41,521 Uh, my mother's from Argentina, 160 00:08:41,564 --> 00:08:45,699 so she has more of a trusting attitude. 161 00:08:45,742 --> 00:08:47,918 She had told him, I think, 162 00:08:47,962 --> 00:08:51,574 that I was pulling away from the family a little bit. 163 00:08:51,618 --> 00:08:53,533 Um, she thought it was a good idea 164 00:08:53,576 --> 00:08:55,143 for me to spend time with him. 165 00:09:00,191 --> 00:09:01,584 If somebody asked me 166 00:09:01,628 --> 00:09:03,804 "Where was," you know, "What-- 167 00:09:03,847 --> 00:09:06,763 "What, uh... 168 00:09:06,807 --> 00:09:08,330 What kicks the bucket for you?" 169 00:09:08,373 --> 00:09:10,071 Whatever, you know. Whatever the thing is. 170 00:09:10,114 --> 00:09:12,464 "Uh, what triggers things off for you?" 171 00:09:12,508 --> 00:09:14,162 You know, "What areas would be?" 172 00:09:14,205 --> 00:09:19,559 And, if given a variety of-- of areas to consider, 173 00:09:19,602 --> 00:09:21,256 you know, I'd have to say 174 00:09:21,299 --> 00:09:23,911 certainly on the younger level. 175 00:09:23,954 --> 00:09:28,393 That, uh, that's where a lot of that surfaced. 176 00:09:28,437 --> 00:09:29,743 And if they said, 177 00:09:29,786 --> 00:09:32,702 "Well, do you feel aroused when you see women?" 178 00:09:32,746 --> 00:09:34,399 I'd probably say no. 179 00:09:34,443 --> 00:09:35,966 "Do you feel aroused when you see men?" No. 180 00:09:36,010 --> 00:09:38,099 "Do you feel aroused if you've seen children?" 181 00:09:38,142 --> 00:09:39,579 I'd say, "Well, maybe." 182 00:09:39,622 --> 00:09:43,495 "How about children who are...in swimsuits?" 183 00:09:43,539 --> 00:09:45,410 I'd say, "Yeah." 184 00:09:45,454 --> 00:09:47,282 "How about children in underwear?" 185 00:09:47,325 --> 00:09:50,372 I'd say, "Yeah," you know? 186 00:09:50,415 --> 00:09:52,592 I would--"If you thought you saw children naked?" 187 00:09:52,635 --> 00:09:54,028 and I'd say, "Mmm, yeah." 188 00:09:55,377 --> 00:09:59,686 My last memory...of Oliver 189 00:09:59,729 --> 00:10:02,166 is severe... 190 00:10:05,605 --> 00:10:06,736 pain... 191 00:10:09,043 --> 00:10:10,784 before I black out. 192 00:10:16,006 --> 00:10:17,660 Years ago, 193 00:10:17,704 --> 00:10:20,837 Case was Pastor of St. Anne's, 194 00:10:20,881 --> 00:10:25,233 and, uh, the parents called Case, 195 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:29,063 and said to him, uh, 196 00:10:29,106 --> 00:10:33,023 "You know, when we picked up our daughter, 197 00:10:33,067 --> 00:10:36,679 "she was not herself at all. 198 00:10:36,723 --> 00:10:41,728 "She was very nervous and looked very jumpy 199 00:10:41,771 --> 00:10:45,688 and looked extremely, uh, anxious." 200 00:10:45,732 --> 00:10:48,256 I mean, he took me out of the house. 201 00:10:48,299 --> 00:10:51,041 I said, you know, "Sometimes I get carsick on the road." 202 00:10:51,085 --> 00:10:53,043 He said, "Put your head on my lap," 203 00:10:53,087 --> 00:10:54,349 and boom, the abuse started. 204 00:10:54,392 --> 00:10:55,916 I mean, I was on Highway 12, 205 00:10:55,959 --> 00:10:57,831 you know, two minutes away from my house, 206 00:10:57,874 --> 00:10:59,049 when it started. 207 00:10:59,093 --> 00:11:01,008 And for 96 hours, 208 00:11:01,051 --> 00:11:03,706 that abuse was happening until my parents came 209 00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:05,621 and said, "Did you have fun with Father?" 210 00:11:05,665 --> 00:11:07,536 And I'm, like, "He tickled me too much." 211 00:11:07,579 --> 00:11:08,798 How do you tell your parents 212 00:11:08,842 --> 00:11:10,147 what you just went through? 213 00:11:10,191 --> 00:11:12,584 They finally got it out of her 214 00:11:12,628 --> 00:11:15,326 that, uh, during the night, 215 00:11:15,370 --> 00:11:18,460 Ollie had come into her room 216 00:11:18,503 --> 00:11:21,158 and had molested her. 217 00:11:21,202 --> 00:11:25,728 I think I tried to be affectionate with her 218 00:11:25,772 --> 00:11:27,730 by kissing her on the mouth. 219 00:11:27,774 --> 00:11:32,300 And I know that my hand went down, 220 00:11:32,343 --> 00:11:34,868 and I think I brought up her night dress 221 00:11:34,911 --> 00:11:37,348 and tried to-- 222 00:11:37,392 --> 00:11:42,266 not tried to, I did touch her in the genital area, 223 00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:44,704 perhaps outside her clothing at first 224 00:11:44,747 --> 00:11:47,576 and maybe, although I can't be specific, 225 00:11:47,619 --> 00:11:48,795 I think I probably tried 226 00:11:48,838 --> 00:11:52,320 to put my hand inside her underwear, 227 00:11:52,363 --> 00:11:54,539 and I think that's about the time 228 00:11:54,583 --> 00:11:57,499 I realized that... 229 00:11:57,542 --> 00:12:00,197 it was not correct to continue, 230 00:12:00,241 --> 00:12:04,462 and--although I'm not... 231 00:12:04,506 --> 00:12:07,509 paraphrasing exactly what I remember I did, 232 00:12:07,552 --> 00:12:09,293 but I think I want to say 233 00:12:09,337 --> 00:12:11,731 that I stopped shortly afterwards 234 00:12:11,774 --> 00:12:16,387 and...left the bed, left the room, 235 00:12:16,431 --> 00:12:18,999 and went back to my own bed. 236 00:12:19,042 --> 00:12:21,697 Case said, "Have you ever done this before?" 237 00:12:21,741 --> 00:12:23,046 And "No." 238 00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:25,005 And-- So he told him. 239 00:12:25,048 --> 00:12:29,574 He said, "Ollie, this is outrageous. 240 00:12:29,618 --> 00:12:32,316 "This is the very type of thing 241 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,624 "that people can go to prison for. 242 00:12:35,667 --> 00:12:37,582 "I want you to sit down 243 00:12:37,626 --> 00:12:40,803 and write a letter of apology." 244 00:12:40,847 --> 00:12:43,588 I took, you know, the occasion 245 00:12:43,632 --> 00:12:46,504 to write my letter to the victim, 246 00:12:46,548 --> 00:12:50,465 and to say, "Hey, I'm sorry." 247 00:12:50,508 --> 00:12:52,032 "May I say first of all 248 00:12:52,075 --> 00:12:53,598 "that this is a difficult letter 249 00:12:53,642 --> 00:12:55,513 "for me to write. 250 00:12:55,557 --> 00:12:57,820 "I have come to like Nancy very much 251 00:12:57,864 --> 00:13:00,954 "and wanted to express my friendship and love for her 252 00:13:00,997 --> 00:13:03,739 "by having her come stay with me. 253 00:13:05,567 --> 00:13:06,829 "I also must admit 254 00:13:06,873 --> 00:13:09,527 "that I feel very affectionate towards Nancy, 255 00:13:09,571 --> 00:13:11,791 "as I am sure I have displayed many times, 256 00:13:11,834 --> 00:13:14,619 "even in your presence. 257 00:13:14,663 --> 00:13:16,796 "Now comes the difficult part. 258 00:13:18,841 --> 00:13:21,061 "Did I touch Nancy 259 00:13:21,104 --> 00:13:23,977 "in areas which I shouldn't have? 260 00:13:24,020 --> 00:13:29,156 "I have to admit that I did on a few occasions. 261 00:13:29,199 --> 00:13:32,246 "I guess I became overly affectionate, 262 00:13:32,289 --> 00:13:34,683 "and took advantage of the situation 263 00:13:34,726 --> 00:13:37,381 "and went a little too far. 264 00:13:37,425 --> 00:13:41,864 "I have already written for an appointment with my bishop. 265 00:13:41,908 --> 00:13:44,824 "I realize the big responsibility 266 00:13:44,867 --> 00:13:46,434 "I have as a priest, 267 00:13:46,477 --> 00:13:50,830 "and the high ideals which I must uphold. 268 00:13:50,873 --> 00:13:53,267 "But I am also painfully aware 269 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:55,095 "of my own weakness, 270 00:13:55,138 --> 00:13:59,490 "and how hard it is at times 271 00:13:59,534 --> 00:14:02,842 "to keep the ideals of priesthood 272 00:14:02,885 --> 00:14:04,669 "in front of me... 273 00:14:11,415 --> 00:14:16,899 "when temptations to satisfy one's own ego 274 00:14:16,943 --> 00:14:19,249 present themselves." 275 00:14:23,471 --> 00:14:25,952 He said, "You need to know 276 00:14:25,995 --> 00:14:29,869 I've already called Bishop Guilfoyle," 277 00:14:29,912 --> 00:14:32,741 who was the bishop at the time, 278 00:14:32,784 --> 00:14:37,702 and, uh, "As soon as our talk is finished here, 279 00:14:37,746 --> 00:14:38,965 you're getting right in the car." 280 00:14:39,008 --> 00:14:41,228 I mean, my mother says 281 00:14:41,271 --> 00:14:43,970 that when she was having the meeting with Guilfoyle, 282 00:14:44,013 --> 00:14:45,841 he was completely saying, 283 00:14:45,885 --> 00:14:48,496 "Oh, I'm sure Nancy just misunderstood his actions. 284 00:14:48,539 --> 00:14:50,063 "I'm sure she-- 285 00:14:50,106 --> 00:14:51,934 what she says happened really didn't happen." 286 00:14:51,978 --> 00:14:55,503 Even though Oliver had already made an appointment, 287 00:14:55,546 --> 00:14:59,463 Guilfoyle had already talked to Case DeGroot about it. 288 00:14:59,507 --> 00:15:01,509 My mom's having this meeting, 289 00:15:01,552 --> 00:15:03,990 and he's saying, "Oh, I'm sure nothing really happened," 290 00:15:04,033 --> 00:15:04,991 blah, blah, blah. 291 00:15:05,034 --> 00:15:06,557 My mom pulls out this letter, 292 00:15:06,601 --> 00:15:08,124 and she said his face went beet-red. 293 00:15:08,168 --> 00:15:09,952 He was furious because of the letter. 294 00:15:09,996 --> 00:15:12,737 Why was he angry about that? 295 00:15:12,781 --> 00:15:15,305 Uh, for legal reasons, I'm sure. 296 00:15:15,349 --> 00:15:17,917 Of the, you know-- I think he was anxious 297 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,964 that, uh, the letter be destroyed 298 00:15:22,008 --> 00:15:25,446 or in some way... 299 00:15:25,489 --> 00:15:26,969 disappear. 300 00:15:29,015 --> 00:15:31,452 Case wanted to make sure 301 00:15:31,495 --> 00:15:36,979 that Ollie was going to be getting counseling for this, 302 00:15:37,023 --> 00:15:40,722 but when he inquired, 303 00:15:40,765 --> 00:15:44,117 the bishop felt that, uh... 304 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,858 he had done his part, he had brought him down, 305 00:15:46,902 --> 00:15:50,950 and in essence, his part was over, 306 00:15:50,993 --> 00:15:55,867 and he should not continue to be a part of this. 307 00:16:31,077 --> 00:16:35,124 I remember saying one time to Case-- 308 00:16:35,168 --> 00:16:36,908 we were driving somewhere, 309 00:16:36,952 --> 00:16:41,348 and Ollie's name came up for one or another reason: 310 00:16:41,391 --> 00:16:44,003 what he does on his day off, you know, 311 00:16:44,046 --> 00:16:46,179 and... 312 00:16:46,222 --> 00:16:48,224 when I said, "Well, you know, 313 00:16:48,268 --> 00:16:52,750 he sleeps over at Maria's house," 314 00:16:52,794 --> 00:16:58,017 and I could see he got so, like, nervous, 315 00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:01,063 but he didn't say anything to me. 316 00:17:02,108 --> 00:17:04,371 The reasons we asked him 317 00:17:04,414 --> 00:17:06,329 to stay overnight sometimes 318 00:17:06,373 --> 00:17:09,115 is because the church can be hectic, 319 00:17:09,158 --> 00:17:12,335 and, like, a priest can be on 24-hour duty 320 00:17:12,379 --> 00:17:16,687 because parishioners may need help, 321 00:17:16,731 --> 00:17:18,602 and it was kind of like a relief 322 00:17:18,646 --> 00:17:20,039 to get away from work. 323 00:17:20,082 --> 00:17:24,086 The duties that a priest has to perform 324 00:17:24,130 --> 00:17:26,219 shouldn't take up all his time. 325 00:17:26,262 --> 00:17:29,091 And I do remember one time, I think-- 326 00:17:29,135 --> 00:17:32,094 And that was his answer to non-married priests. 327 00:17:32,138 --> 00:17:34,140 In other religions they're married.Yeah. 328 00:17:34,183 --> 00:17:36,968 It would be so much easier to help people 329 00:17:37,012 --> 00:17:38,361 in the Catholic religion-- 330 00:17:38,405 --> 00:17:39,971 'Cause you know what a family's like. 331 00:17:40,015 --> 00:17:42,104 ...if they had a family of their own, 332 00:17:42,148 --> 00:17:44,106 and he used to say he couldn't do that. 333 00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:45,368 He couldn't do both. 334 00:17:45,412 --> 00:17:48,110 Yeah, 'cause of the work with the church 335 00:17:48,154 --> 00:17:49,546 that, you know, 336 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:53,028 what he says is dedication to the Church, you know. 337 00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:55,857 You have to have celibacy because you can't give-- 338 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:59,643 But I says, "How do you know how a family functions?" 339 00:17:59,687 --> 00:18:04,170 And he would say, "Well, by education, school." 340 00:18:04,213 --> 00:18:06,433 You know, looking back at it now in reflection, 341 00:18:06,476 --> 00:18:08,391 it's more like a power trip 342 00:18:08,435 --> 00:18:11,046 that he would have us robe him, 343 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,048 like he was a deity, you know? 344 00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:15,920 Like he was the king or something, you know? 345 00:18:15,964 --> 00:18:20,186 He would call us out of class, you know. 346 00:18:20,229 --> 00:18:22,536 He would--He had total control of us 347 00:18:22,579 --> 00:18:24,103 'cause he was at our school, 348 00:18:24,146 --> 00:18:27,715 he was at our home, he was at church. 349 00:18:27,758 --> 00:18:29,804 In a Catholic lifestyle, 350 00:18:29,847 --> 00:18:32,154 what else is left after that? 351 00:18:32,198 --> 00:18:34,896 What part of my life wasn't he at? 352 00:18:34,939 --> 00:18:36,027 I absolutely, you know. 353 00:18:36,071 --> 00:18:38,204 I mean, there's an awful lot of my areas 354 00:18:38,247 --> 00:18:41,120 that I was ill-equipped to handle, you know. 355 00:18:41,163 --> 00:18:42,643 Counseling would be one of them. 356 00:18:42,686 --> 00:18:45,124 If I were back in, I'd never counsel people, 357 00:18:45,167 --> 00:18:47,038 unless I took training in it, you know. 358 00:18:47,082 --> 00:18:51,217 Because apparently I wasn't able to spot the differences, 359 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:55,264 spot the elements that, uh... 360 00:18:55,308 --> 00:18:57,048 There were danger signals, 361 00:18:57,092 --> 00:18:59,790 that--that a therapist, you know, would know 362 00:18:59,834 --> 00:19:02,967 to say, "Oh, there's transference here," you know. 363 00:19:03,011 --> 00:19:05,492 This person is not alone, coming to me once a week. 364 00:19:05,535 --> 00:19:08,538 This person is calling me on the phone twice a day. 365 00:19:08,582 --> 00:19:11,193 This person is calling me on the phone 366 00:19:11,237 --> 00:19:14,153 about things that are insignificant right now. 367 00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:16,067 "My God, what do I have for dinner?" 368 00:19:16,111 --> 00:19:18,157 Whatever you like. Why are you calling me? 369 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,117 You've had dinner before. You'll have dinner again. 370 00:19:22,161 --> 00:19:24,206 But, you know, what was there about me 371 00:19:24,250 --> 00:19:27,688 that kind of said "You cancall me," 372 00:19:27,731 --> 00:19:29,820 you know? 373 00:19:29,864 --> 00:19:32,954 This was somebody that we knew for 23 years, 374 00:19:32,997 --> 00:19:35,086 totally trusted. 375 00:19:35,130 --> 00:19:36,262 We trusted him because-- 376 00:19:36,305 --> 00:19:38,220 And now, you know, I hear, you know, 377 00:19:38,264 --> 00:19:40,222 things he did with other families, 378 00:19:40,266 --> 00:19:43,834 and... 379 00:19:43,878 --> 00:19:45,923 I just feel, uh... 380 00:19:45,967 --> 00:19:48,926 I never saw that side of him. 381 00:19:48,970 --> 00:19:50,406 You know, we were supporting him 382 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:52,756 up to the very, very end, 383 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,934 'cause he was-- he was the perfect... 384 00:19:56,978 --> 00:19:59,937 example of what you would think a priest would be 385 00:19:59,981 --> 00:20:02,201 when he was here in our house. 386 00:20:02,244 --> 00:20:04,986 I mean, he was always respectful. 387 00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:08,163 He was-- Anything that I saw with him with the kids, 388 00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:09,556 he was fine. 389 00:20:09,599 --> 00:20:10,948 He would stay here. 390 00:20:10,992 --> 00:20:13,212 I mean, you'd see him in here in the morning 391 00:20:13,255 --> 00:20:14,648 reading his Bible. 392 00:20:14,691 --> 00:20:16,084 He was everything that I-- 393 00:20:16,127 --> 00:20:17,390 I'd go to work and-- 394 00:20:17,433 --> 00:20:19,740 He was the closest thing to God that we knew. 395 00:20:24,484 --> 00:20:25,876 Being Catholic 396 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,664 is, uh, not like being a Lutheran 397 00:20:30,707 --> 00:20:32,318 or a Presbyterian. 398 00:20:32,361 --> 00:20:34,755 The thing that, for a lot of non-Catholics 399 00:20:34,798 --> 00:20:36,365 is hard to understand is, 400 00:20:36,409 --> 00:20:39,150 the Church teaches to salvation, way 401 00:20:39,194 --> 00:20:41,152 if you're Catholic, is through the Church, 402 00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:43,329 and if you're not in communion with the Church, 403 00:20:43,372 --> 00:20:44,634 you're damned to hell. 404 00:20:44,678 --> 00:20:47,115 And it's not just kind of like without-God hell. 405 00:20:47,158 --> 00:20:50,161 It's fire and brimstone hell for eternity. 406 00:20:50,205 --> 00:20:51,293 Well, the Eucharist, 407 00:20:51,337 --> 00:20:53,469 as we call it in Catholic theology, 408 00:20:53,513 --> 00:20:56,298 the Holy Communion of the bread and wine 409 00:20:56,342 --> 00:20:58,779 that for some is the body and blood of Christ, 410 00:20:58,822 --> 00:21:00,998 for others represents the body and blood of Christ. 411 00:21:01,042 --> 00:21:03,218 No matter what you call-- what rules you use, 412 00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:04,611 it's essential to Catholicism. 413 00:21:04,654 --> 00:21:07,614 The power of the Eucharist 414 00:21:07,657 --> 00:21:10,312 is what the Church has held over people, 415 00:21:10,356 --> 00:21:11,835 that "I, as an ordained person 416 00:21:11,879 --> 00:21:13,402 "with an indelible mark, 417 00:21:13,446 --> 00:21:14,969 "can make Holy Communion 418 00:21:15,012 --> 00:21:17,754 "is what separates you from me, 419 00:21:17,798 --> 00:21:19,321 "what separates me 420 00:21:19,365 --> 00:21:21,367 from the average person going down the street." 421 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:22,977 And if you think of, you know, 422 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:25,806 the earliest commun-- church comminutes, 423 00:21:25,849 --> 00:21:27,764 it wasn't controlled by the clergy. 424 00:21:27,808 --> 00:21:29,200 It was breaking of bread 425 00:21:29,244 --> 00:21:30,463 and passed around to believing people 426 00:21:30,506 --> 00:21:32,943 as the symbol of Christ's presence-- 427 00:21:32,987 --> 00:21:34,554 spiritual presence among us. 428 00:21:34,597 --> 00:21:37,774 But then it has become controlled in many ways, 429 00:21:37,818 --> 00:21:39,385 and politicized. 430 00:21:39,428 --> 00:21:41,865 So, for instance, if you're married and divorced 431 00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:43,911 and remarried but not by a priest, 432 00:21:43,954 --> 00:21:45,173 you can't go to Communion. 433 00:21:45,216 --> 00:21:46,435 If you're gay 434 00:21:46,479 --> 00:21:48,655 and you're not absolutely chaste and celibate, 435 00:21:48,698 --> 00:21:50,047 you can't go to Communion. 436 00:21:50,091 --> 00:21:52,006 If you vote for somebody 437 00:21:52,049 --> 00:21:54,356 who, uh, approves of abortion, 438 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,315 you can't go to Communion, according to some. 439 00:21:56,358 --> 00:22:00,362 So it's become a kind of a politicized reward 440 00:22:00,406 --> 00:22:01,885 for thinking the right way, 441 00:22:01,929 --> 00:22:03,800 when, in effect, it's none of the above. 442 00:22:03,844 --> 00:22:06,237 I can't think of anything more evil 443 00:22:06,281 --> 00:22:08,239 than a priest using his office, 444 00:22:08,283 --> 00:22:10,633 what the Catholics would callalter Christus, 445 00:22:10,677 --> 00:22:13,244 when the priest raises that host at Mass 446 00:22:13,288 --> 00:22:15,290 and consecrates that host, 447 00:22:15,334 --> 00:22:16,813 the priest becomes one with Christ. 448 00:22:16,857 --> 00:22:18,380 The Catholics believe, 449 00:22:18,424 --> 00:22:20,164 and we're all taught as little kids, 450 00:22:20,208 --> 00:22:21,992 that it's truly Jesus Christ. 451 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:23,559 To take that hand, 452 00:22:23,603 --> 00:22:26,301 within moments before or after that, 453 00:22:26,345 --> 00:22:29,783 and place them and abuse him--nitals 454 00:22:29,826 --> 00:22:31,350 And I think that was part 455 00:22:31,393 --> 00:22:34,483 of the terrible destruction to the child 456 00:22:34,527 --> 00:22:37,356 that in addition to all the other... 457 00:22:37,399 --> 00:22:39,445 consequences-- long-term consequences 458 00:22:39,488 --> 00:22:41,577 of being sexually abused, 459 00:22:41,621 --> 00:22:46,147 the spiritual abuse, um, of being abused 460 00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:50,586 by a--a embodiment of the divine, if you will, 461 00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:53,372 um, was just devastating. 462 00:22:55,417 --> 00:22:58,246 I asked for a meeting with Oliver O'Grady 463 00:22:58,289 --> 00:23:00,509 in '86, 464 00:23:00,553 --> 00:23:02,772 and they told me, you know, 465 00:23:02,816 --> 00:23:04,295 "Vengeance is wrong. 466 00:23:04,339 --> 00:23:06,341 "He's a virtue of priesthood now. 467 00:23:06,385 --> 00:23:09,431 "He's in counseling. Check your motives. 468 00:23:09,475 --> 00:23:12,260 "God will delve out punishments. 469 00:23:12,303 --> 00:23:13,609 You don't need to." 470 00:23:13,653 --> 00:23:17,439 When Nancy Sloan came to you in the '80s, 471 00:23:17,483 --> 00:23:19,310 she was distressed, correct? 472 00:23:19,354 --> 00:23:21,095 1986, was it? 473 00:23:21,138 --> 00:23:23,619 Was she distressed? 474 00:23:23,663 --> 00:23:26,100 No, she--she wasn't. 475 00:23:27,971 --> 00:23:30,234 Was she just doing just fine? 476 00:23:30,278 --> 00:23:32,889 She-- The first time I saw her 477 00:23:32,933 --> 00:23:34,717 was that--that day. 478 00:23:34,761 --> 00:23:38,504 I hadn't known anything about her. 479 00:23:38,547 --> 00:23:42,899 Uh, she seemed very composed. 480 00:23:42,943 --> 00:23:44,466 He just went on and on, 481 00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:46,555 lashing out all this guilt on me, 482 00:23:46,599 --> 00:23:48,122 when I told him, you know, 483 00:23:48,165 --> 00:23:50,516 I just want him to understand the depth 484 00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:52,866 of the pain that I suffer on a regular basis, 485 00:23:52,909 --> 00:23:57,174 that how, when I see a Dodge Duster, 486 00:23:57,218 --> 00:23:59,873 which was the car that he drove at the time, 487 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:02,353 how I still pull over and dry heave. 488 00:24:02,397 --> 00:24:03,485 What did she want? 489 00:24:03,529 --> 00:24:05,574 She wanted to know 490 00:24:05,618 --> 00:24:10,492 whether Father O'Grady was continuing 491 00:24:10,536 --> 00:24:13,539 in, uh, therapy. 492 00:24:13,582 --> 00:24:14,801 What did you tell her? 493 00:24:14,844 --> 00:24:17,891 I told that I would-- I--I thought he was, 494 00:24:17,934 --> 00:24:20,284 but I would check on it for sure. 495 00:24:20,328 --> 00:24:22,112 Was he? Yes. 496 00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:25,812 I told him, "You knew that I was being abused. 497 00:24:25,855 --> 00:24:28,510 "You knew that the abuse was happening. 498 00:24:28,554 --> 00:24:30,207 How could you not have done something?" 499 00:24:30,251 --> 00:24:33,559 So Bishop Montrose knew O'Grady was an abuser? 500 00:24:33,602 --> 00:24:37,040 He knew that O'Grady had been accused of, uh, 501 00:24:37,084 --> 00:24:40,435 inappropriate touching in '76. 502 00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:45,309 Just like every other bishop after '76. 503 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:51,838 Right? 504 00:24:51,881 --> 00:24:53,927 Yes. 505 00:24:53,970 --> 00:24:56,364 And he said, 506 00:24:56,407 --> 00:24:58,758 "We knew that you were being abused, 507 00:24:58,801 --> 00:25:01,500 "but you were a girl, 508 00:25:01,543 --> 00:25:04,546 "so we thought it was normal curiosity. 509 00:25:04,590 --> 00:25:06,156 "Had you been a boy, 510 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,376 "we would have thought something was wrong with it. 511 00:25:08,419 --> 00:25:10,160 "That would have been obscene 512 00:25:10,204 --> 00:25:13,424 "for him to have abused a boy, 513 00:25:13,468 --> 00:25:15,557 like homosexual." 514 00:25:18,995 --> 00:25:21,476 The situation was, I'm alone with the boy. 515 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,480 There wasn't anybody else in the rectory at the time. 516 00:25:25,524 --> 00:25:27,003 I brought him in. 517 00:25:27,047 --> 00:25:29,179 I had been affectionate with him before, 518 00:25:29,223 --> 00:25:30,616 so being affectionate again with him 519 00:25:30,659 --> 00:25:35,316 wasn't that difficult a thing to do, which I was. 520 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,492 And I remember, uh, 521 00:25:37,536 --> 00:25:39,450 just holding him and hugging him 522 00:25:39,494 --> 00:25:42,062 and probably saying some nice things to him, 523 00:25:42,105 --> 00:25:45,544 and he was responding as well, you know. 524 00:25:45,587 --> 00:25:49,112 And the thought that had gone to my mind, actually, 525 00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:51,680 was to... 526 00:25:51,724 --> 00:25:53,900 to take off all his clothes 527 00:25:53,943 --> 00:25:57,468 and to molest him that way. 528 00:25:57,512 --> 00:26:02,125 And I think I may have taken off his T-shirt, 529 00:26:02,169 --> 00:26:06,826 and then I was going to unbuckle his pants, 530 00:26:06,869 --> 00:26:08,218 and there was a feeling-- 531 00:26:08,262 --> 00:26:10,394 I didn't know if I wanted to go-- 532 00:26:10,438 --> 00:26:12,309 There was a conflict in my mind about, 533 00:26:12,353 --> 00:26:14,268 "Do I really want to do this? 534 00:26:14,311 --> 00:26:17,010 "Uh, here's somebody that I like. 535 00:26:17,053 --> 00:26:20,883 "Here's somebody that I...I respect, 536 00:26:20,927 --> 00:26:22,668 "a family I respect. 537 00:26:22,711 --> 00:26:26,889 Uh, what would he feel like at the end of this?" 538 00:26:26,933 --> 00:26:28,630 Yet, at the other side, 539 00:26:28,674 --> 00:26:33,548 there was urges within me to--to be sexual with him, 540 00:26:33,592 --> 00:26:36,333 and this is an opportunity to be sexual with him 541 00:26:36,377 --> 00:26:39,423 because I wouldn't have this opportunity again 542 00:26:39,467 --> 00:26:41,991 God knows when. 543 00:26:42,035 --> 00:26:47,518 And so I decided not to be affectionate with him, 544 00:26:47,562 --> 00:26:51,827 and yet later, I brought him back into my bedroom again, 545 00:26:51,871 --> 00:26:56,963 and I did unbutton his pants, 546 00:26:57,006 --> 00:26:58,399 take out his penis, 547 00:26:58,442 --> 00:27:01,184 and I began to masturbate him at that time. 548 00:27:01,228 --> 00:27:02,533 And... 549 00:27:05,406 --> 00:27:07,669 I think what I-- in doing that, 550 00:27:07,713 --> 00:27:10,193 I'm not too sure what he was feeling with all-- 551 00:27:10,237 --> 00:27:11,717 I think, looking at his face 552 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,676 kind of told me that he was, uh... 553 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,636 a little uneasy about this. 554 00:27:17,679 --> 00:27:21,727 I thought at one point he was going to cry, you know. 555 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:24,294 One of the few times it had ever happened to me, 556 00:27:24,338 --> 00:27:27,602 I had an orgasm myself... 557 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:29,430 without him touching me, 558 00:27:29,473 --> 00:27:32,651 and I think that--that ended it right there and then. 559 00:27:32,694 --> 00:27:35,784 So I just tidied him up, 560 00:27:35,828 --> 00:27:41,442 and perhaps I took care of myself, too, in the bathroom alone, 561 00:27:41,485 --> 00:27:44,097 but I tidied him up and put on his T-shirt, 562 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:47,013 and then I made a decision right there and then. 563 00:27:47,056 --> 00:27:49,624 I was not going to do that again to this boy. 564 00:28:00,983 --> 00:28:02,811 There's Ireland. 565 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,118 Yeah. 566 00:28:05,161 --> 00:28:06,336 He went with us. 567 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:07,555 Yeah. 568 00:28:07,598 --> 00:28:09,122 There he is with Grandma and Grandpa. 569 00:28:09,165 --> 00:28:10,689 That's right. That's you. 570 00:28:10,732 --> 00:28:11,690 Yep. 571 00:28:11,733 --> 00:28:12,691 You're standing there. 572 00:28:12,734 --> 00:28:14,170 Behind the car. 573 00:28:14,214 --> 00:28:15,302 Yeah. 574 00:28:17,608 --> 00:28:19,001 That's your Communion picture. 575 00:28:19,045 --> 00:28:20,002 Yep. 576 00:28:20,046 --> 00:28:21,700 With Mahony. 577 00:28:28,881 --> 00:28:31,753 I'm angry at Mahony 578 00:28:31,797 --> 00:28:36,889 for claiming that he had absolutely no knowledge 579 00:28:36,932 --> 00:28:38,455 of this pedophile 580 00:28:38,499 --> 00:28:41,545 who had a file, a sub-secrete file, 581 00:28:41,589 --> 00:28:43,765 that had pieces of evidence, 582 00:28:43,809 --> 00:28:46,115 that had, you know, 583 00:28:46,159 --> 00:28:49,771 a, um, a father who had-- 584 00:28:49,815 --> 00:28:51,730 the Howard father who had come forward 585 00:28:51,773 --> 00:28:53,819 with his concerns about the amount of time 586 00:28:53,862 --> 00:28:57,648 that his children were alone on Oliver O'Grady's days off. 587 00:29:39,952 --> 00:29:43,216 '76 to '84, 588 00:29:43,259 --> 00:29:48,221 that's, I think, when a lot of the Howards' situation took place, 589 00:29:48,264 --> 00:29:51,790 and, you know, if I was involved with them, 590 00:29:51,833 --> 00:29:53,835 I was a danger to them, 591 00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:55,924 but I would have been a danger to others as well. 592 00:29:55,968 --> 00:29:57,621 Were you concerned 593 00:29:57,665 --> 00:29:58,971 about Father O'Grady's conduct 594 00:29:59,014 --> 00:30:02,844 with regard to the Howard family in 1980? 595 00:30:02,888 --> 00:30:05,499 I called him in 596 00:30:05,542 --> 00:30:08,589 and told him that he was to cease and desist 597 00:30:08,632 --> 00:30:11,244 any more conduct-- uh, contact 598 00:30:11,287 --> 00:30:13,724 with Mrs. Howard or the Howard family. 599 00:30:13,768 --> 00:30:15,726 He promised to do so, 600 00:30:15,770 --> 00:30:17,990 and I never had another report 601 00:30:18,033 --> 00:30:20,122 about him and the Howards. 602 00:30:20,166 --> 00:30:21,863 I visited with the bishop, 603 00:30:21,907 --> 00:30:25,084 and we had a conference, 604 00:30:25,127 --> 00:30:28,000 and I had mentioned that perhaps I should need some counseling 605 00:30:28,043 --> 00:30:30,916 to get an understanding of this, 606 00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:33,353 and the bishop kind of at that time 607 00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:34,920 said, "Okay, go ahead and do that." 608 00:30:34,963 --> 00:30:39,315 You know, I'd say, "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I..." 609 00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,535 Sometimes it's good to give them a time limit 610 00:30:41,578 --> 00:30:43,102 as to when your last confession was, 611 00:30:43,145 --> 00:30:45,626 and so I'm--"Well, I was with some friends of mine yesterday, 612 00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:47,193 "and some of them are young children, 613 00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:48,455 "and I had the opportunity 614 00:30:48,498 --> 00:30:50,849 "to be alone with one of them, 615 00:30:50,892 --> 00:30:54,156 "and I did some things 616 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:55,897 "such as to touch his private parts, 617 00:30:55,941 --> 00:30:59,858 "and took occasion to do that a few times 618 00:30:59,901 --> 00:31:01,903 "when he was alone with me, 619 00:31:01,947 --> 00:31:05,907 "and...I want to confess that right now, 620 00:31:05,951 --> 00:31:08,214 ask forgiveness and absolution." 621 00:31:11,434 --> 00:31:13,045 If it had come to your attention 622 00:31:13,088 --> 00:31:17,266 that Father O'Grady told a, uh, your vicar-general 623 00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:20,661 that he had sexual urges towards a 9-year-old 624 00:31:20,704 --> 00:31:22,924 or 10-year-old or an 11-year old, 625 00:31:22,968 --> 00:31:27,450 is that cause to remove him from ministry? 626 00:31:27,494 --> 00:31:28,451 No. 627 00:31:28,495 --> 00:31:31,106 And the Church just moved him 628 00:31:31,150 --> 00:31:34,501 to another place where they have kids. 629 00:31:34,544 --> 00:31:36,938 Why didn't they just take him out? 630 00:31:36,982 --> 00:31:39,941 Why didn't they admit it? 631 00:31:39,985 --> 00:31:42,901 There was no action taken 632 00:31:42,944 --> 00:31:47,557 that would remove him from children, 633 00:31:47,601 --> 00:31:52,388 and so when you transfer him from one place to another, 634 00:31:52,432 --> 00:31:58,481 it's...just a tragedy waiting to happen. 635 00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:36,563 Like again, 636 00:32:36,606 --> 00:32:38,173 the '84 situation, what brought it up 637 00:32:38,217 --> 00:32:40,871 was, you know, I'm not feeling right inside. 638 00:32:40,915 --> 00:32:42,047 There's something not right. 639 00:32:42,090 --> 00:32:44,005 I need to take care of this. 640 00:32:44,049 --> 00:32:46,007 When I had mentioned it to my counselor, 641 00:32:46,051 --> 00:32:47,878 this time a professional counselor-- 642 00:32:47,922 --> 00:32:49,924 uh, he was a layman-- 643 00:32:49,968 --> 00:32:52,753 He was very helpful, you know? 644 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:57,018 And, uh, he about pulled the whole tablecloth 645 00:32:57,062 --> 00:32:59,020 out from under me, you know? 646 00:32:59,064 --> 00:33:01,457 And, uh, all of a sudden, 647 00:33:01,501 --> 00:33:05,026 I saw this massive... problem, you know, 648 00:33:05,070 --> 00:33:08,073 that I had, 649 00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:11,946 these tendencies that I had, 650 00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:14,035 and this vale of destruction 651 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:16,690 that I had created as a result of that. 652 00:33:16,733 --> 00:33:19,040 And that was very frightening, 653 00:33:19,084 --> 00:33:22,739 very difficult to, uh, to comprehend, 654 00:33:22,783 --> 00:33:24,872 and even to want to comprehend 655 00:33:24,915 --> 00:33:26,613 at that particular time 656 00:33:26,656 --> 00:33:29,137 that that was going on. 657 00:33:29,181 --> 00:33:32,749 But that's what he did when he confronted me, 658 00:33:32,793 --> 00:33:37,406 and said, "I need-- I need to report this," 659 00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:40,322 and he meant report it to the authorities-- 660 00:33:40,366 --> 00:33:42,150 police department-- 661 00:33:42,194 --> 00:33:44,022 and that really scared me, you know? 662 00:33:44,065 --> 00:33:45,023 That really woke me up. 663 00:33:58,732 --> 00:34:00,081 My counselor suggested 664 00:34:00,125 --> 00:34:05,173 that I now talk to the bishop's office. 665 00:34:05,217 --> 00:34:06,957 Well, I'm aware right now 666 00:34:07,001 --> 00:34:10,004 that a personnel file is kept on each person, 667 00:34:10,048 --> 00:34:12,050 so I would tend to think that, 668 00:34:12,093 --> 00:34:14,095 knowing Mahony as he is, 669 00:34:14,139 --> 00:34:16,010 that he would have gone through all those 670 00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:17,968 and would have seen any references 671 00:34:18,012 --> 00:34:19,927 that would have been in the file 672 00:34:19,970 --> 00:34:23,670 regarding the 1973 and 1976 issues, 673 00:34:23,713 --> 00:34:25,411 and that, I think should have told him 674 00:34:25,454 --> 00:34:28,718 that there was, you know, not just a one-shot deal, 675 00:34:28,762 --> 00:34:32,026 but there was at least two prior situations 676 00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:33,636 that needed to be dealt with. 677 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,986 I should have been removed-- 678 00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:38,163 Ahem-- 679 00:34:38,206 --> 00:34:39,860 ...and attended to, 680 00:34:39,903 --> 00:34:42,558 and he should also, then, have followed up 681 00:34:42,602 --> 00:34:45,735 by attending to the people that I harmed. 682 00:34:45,779 --> 00:34:48,303 I'd like if he had done that, 683 00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:51,001 like if all of the bishops had done that. 684 00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:54,570 Now, I didn't talk to Mahony right away. 685 00:34:54,614 --> 00:34:57,878 I think I talked to the other monsignor. 686 00:34:57,921 --> 00:34:59,184 There was a Monsignor Cain. 687 00:34:59,227 --> 00:35:03,144 Did you think it was important in 1984 688 00:35:03,188 --> 00:35:06,974 that the Stockton Police Department 689 00:35:07,017 --> 00:35:12,762 be advised not only of the information 690 00:35:12,806 --> 00:35:14,155 concerning young Mr. Howard, 691 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:15,939 but also that there had been 692 00:35:15,983 --> 00:35:20,335 a prior allegation by Nancy Sloan's family 693 00:35:20,379 --> 00:35:23,599 of inappropriate touching? 694 00:35:23,643 --> 00:35:24,774 No. 695 00:35:24,818 --> 00:35:26,820 Well, how would they uncover 696 00:35:26,863 --> 00:35:28,778 what happened to Nancy Sloan, 697 00:35:28,822 --> 00:35:31,520 unless someone from the diocese told them? 698 00:35:31,564 --> 00:35:32,869 They wouldn't, 699 00:35:32,913 --> 00:35:35,307 and at the time, 700 00:35:35,350 --> 00:35:37,396 the two just were not related. 701 00:35:37,439 --> 00:35:40,181 They just didn't coordinate. 702 00:35:40,225 --> 00:35:42,705 What do you mean when you say they weren't related, 703 00:35:42,749 --> 00:35:44,142 they didn't coordinate? 704 00:35:44,185 --> 00:35:45,926 Well, at the time of--of.. 705 00:35:45,969 --> 00:35:49,103 that he came in in '84 706 00:35:49,147 --> 00:35:51,888 to talk about this incident, 707 00:35:51,932 --> 00:35:53,934 certainly... 708 00:35:55,892 --> 00:35:58,112 I knew the one in '76 took place, 709 00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:00,375 but I didn't put the two together. 710 00:36:00,419 --> 00:36:02,203 One was a girl. 711 00:36:02,247 --> 00:36:04,379 It was inappropriate touching. 712 00:36:04,423 --> 00:36:07,121 The other was a boy, he said, 713 00:36:07,165 --> 00:36:11,081 so I just didn't hook them up in my own mind. 714 00:36:11,125 --> 00:36:12,866 Monsignor Cain then suggested 715 00:36:12,909 --> 00:36:14,694 I talk to the diocesan attorney. 716 00:36:14,737 --> 00:36:16,348 Oh, it was very difficult, yeah, 717 00:36:16,391 --> 00:36:19,089 because I was, you know, kind of-- 718 00:36:19,133 --> 00:36:21,353 you know that kind of unknowing thing? 719 00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:24,094 Um, I could be arrested. 720 00:36:24,138 --> 00:36:25,922 Where could I end up, you know? 721 00:36:25,966 --> 00:36:27,228 This could be... 722 00:36:27,272 --> 00:36:29,404 What will my family think? 723 00:36:29,448 --> 00:36:31,319 What will anybody think 724 00:36:31,363 --> 00:36:33,278 when this happens, you know? 725 00:36:33,321 --> 00:36:36,150 Mahony did call me. He was out of town with some meeting. 726 00:36:36,194 --> 00:36:37,717 I can't remember where. 727 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,154 But when he did get back, he did talk to me. 728 00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:41,242 I remember saying to him, 729 00:36:41,286 --> 00:36:42,374 I said, "You know, Bishop, 730 00:36:42,417 --> 00:36:44,376 "this whole thing has been going on 731 00:36:44,419 --> 00:36:48,206 for the past"-- and I'd been keeping a record of the days-- 732 00:36:48,249 --> 00:36:49,859 "40 days." 733 00:36:49,903 --> 00:36:52,253 It was, like, actually 40 days. 734 00:36:52,297 --> 00:36:53,733 I said, "It's"-- 735 00:36:53,776 --> 00:36:56,866 I said, "It's been a real desert experience for me," 736 00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:59,129 using an analogy from the Scripture 737 00:36:59,173 --> 00:37:01,784 and, you know, the whole 40 years in the desert 738 00:37:01,828 --> 00:37:03,308 type of thing. 739 00:37:03,351 --> 00:37:06,659 I said, "It's been a real Lenten experience for me, 740 00:37:06,702 --> 00:37:09,270 I guess," I said, "even outside of Lent." 741 00:37:09,314 --> 00:37:11,838 And he was very supportive, you know. 742 00:37:11,881 --> 00:37:13,187 He was very compassionate. 743 00:37:13,231 --> 00:37:14,536 I felt at the time-- 744 00:37:14,580 --> 00:37:16,234 I think he was merely calling 745 00:37:16,277 --> 00:37:18,627 to, uh, check how I was doing, 746 00:37:18,671 --> 00:37:20,368 because he obviously knew 747 00:37:20,412 --> 00:37:22,152 I had been very stressed out over the situation, 748 00:37:22,196 --> 00:37:23,980 and I told him that, you know. 749 00:37:24,024 --> 00:37:25,286 And he got back to me 750 00:37:25,330 --> 00:37:27,549 and said, "This is where we are: 751 00:37:27,593 --> 00:37:30,378 Uh, "No charge is being filed, 752 00:37:30,422 --> 00:37:32,206 "but we are moving you on, 753 00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:36,123 and here's a couple of other parts to the package deal." 754 00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:37,690 The bishop, the attorneys, 755 00:37:37,733 --> 00:37:38,952 and the police department 756 00:37:38,995 --> 00:37:40,867 decided that maybe it was best 757 00:37:40,910 --> 00:37:43,130 to move me on to another situation 758 00:37:43,173 --> 00:37:44,653 out of the particular county 759 00:37:44,697 --> 00:37:47,177 in which these charges will be filed, 760 00:37:47,221 --> 00:37:48,788 and then to, uh-- 761 00:37:48,831 --> 00:37:52,270 they'll let me take care of the business there. 762 00:37:52,313 --> 00:37:57,405 And Mahony's people promised the police 763 00:37:57,449 --> 00:38:00,234 that he would never have another parish, 764 00:38:00,278 --> 00:38:02,323 that he wouldn't be around kids, 765 00:38:02,367 --> 00:38:03,977 and they'd take care of it. 766 00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:09,287 In the Vatican Ecclesiastical system, 767 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:11,419 there's this term that's used. 768 00:38:11,463 --> 00:38:12,986 It's called bella figura. 769 00:38:13,029 --> 00:38:14,292 It's an Italian word 770 00:38:14,335 --> 00:38:17,643 which means good impression, good image. 771 00:38:17,686 --> 00:38:22,169 One of the aspects, one of the--the factors 772 00:38:22,212 --> 00:38:24,476 in a man being successful in the Church 773 00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:26,478 is that he create a good image, 774 00:38:26,521 --> 00:38:29,394 and that's what Roger was very much concerned about, 775 00:38:29,437 --> 00:38:31,221 that there be this image 776 00:38:31,265 --> 00:38:34,616 of a very upright, loyal, orthodox bishop, 777 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:37,227 soon to become Archbishop hopefully, 778 00:38:37,271 --> 00:38:39,447 because he would be the only choice for the pope 779 00:38:39,491 --> 00:38:41,319 to be the Archbishop of Los Angeles. 780 00:38:41,362 --> 00:38:43,886 And the thing he had to do, then, 781 00:38:43,930 --> 00:38:46,324 was to take O'Grady, 782 00:38:46,367 --> 00:38:48,369 to avoid scandal, 783 00:38:48,413 --> 00:38:52,721 and any--any scrutiny on him in particular, 784 00:38:52,765 --> 00:38:56,421 uh, was to move him to an outlying parish 785 00:38:56,464 --> 00:39:00,860 far away from where the police would have jurisdiction, 786 00:39:00,903 --> 00:39:03,384 which was in Stockton at the time, 787 00:39:03,428 --> 00:39:05,430 and move him out to San Andreas-- 788 00:39:05,473 --> 00:39:07,257 St. Andrew's in San Andreas-- 789 00:39:07,301 --> 00:39:09,259 way out there in the hinterland, 790 00:39:09,303 --> 00:39:10,478 and put him out there 791 00:39:10,522 --> 00:39:13,263 in a very quiet little bucolic setting, 792 00:39:13,307 --> 00:39:16,397 where there was no other supervisor, just O'Grady, 793 00:39:16,441 --> 00:39:18,181 and nobody would know, 794 00:39:18,225 --> 00:39:20,227 and the police wouldn't know, 795 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:21,794 the public wouldn't know, 796 00:39:21,837 --> 00:39:24,710 the parishioners and the victims over there wouldn't know, 797 00:39:24,753 --> 00:39:26,320 and Rome wouldn't know. 798 00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:28,670 I'd taken the depositions 799 00:39:28,714 --> 00:39:32,326 of cardinals, archbishops, and bishops across this country 800 00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:34,372 for 23 years, 801 00:39:34,415 --> 00:39:39,420 and what I've encountered is deception, perjury, 802 00:39:39,464 --> 00:39:40,856 denial, and deceit 803 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,293 at the highest levels of the Catholic Church. 804 00:39:43,337 --> 00:39:46,340 Somebody has represented to the police, 805 00:39:46,384 --> 00:39:49,387 in the middle of their active investigation, 806 00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:52,433 that they are going to transfer O'Grady out of the parish-- 807 00:39:52,477 --> 00:39:53,608 Mm-hmm. 808 00:39:53,652 --> 00:39:56,655 That he will be working only with adults 809 00:39:56,698 --> 00:39:58,134 and away from children, 810 00:39:58,178 --> 00:40:00,354 and Monsignor Cain has denied 811 00:40:00,398 --> 00:40:02,312 that he was possessed of that knowledge. 812 00:40:02,356 --> 00:40:03,313 Mm-hmm. 813 00:40:03,357 --> 00:40:04,314 Under oath. 814 00:40:04,358 --> 00:40:05,533 Uh-huh. 815 00:40:05,577 --> 00:40:08,449 You're the captain of the ship, 816 00:40:08,493 --> 00:40:09,450 the bishop if the diocese, 817 00:40:09,494 --> 00:40:11,321 the ordinary in charge. 818 00:40:11,365 --> 00:40:15,325 Um, who else, if you weren't possessed of this knowledge 819 00:40:15,369 --> 00:40:19,112 and Monsignor Cain wasn't possessed of this knowledge, 820 00:40:19,155 --> 00:40:21,114 do you think could have been, 821 00:40:21,157 --> 00:40:23,464 knowing the way the diocese works 822 00:40:23,508 --> 00:40:26,162 or at least worked in 1984? 823 00:40:26,206 --> 00:40:29,731 Uh, I--I--I just have no idea of knowing. 824 00:40:29,775 --> 00:40:30,993 I don't know. 825 00:40:31,037 --> 00:40:33,082 I know that Monsignor Cain 826 00:40:33,126 --> 00:40:37,217 knew that last sentence existed, 827 00:40:37,260 --> 00:40:39,349 he certainly would have said something. 828 00:40:39,393 --> 00:40:41,830 He would not have just let us go ahead 829 00:40:41,874 --> 00:40:43,702 and move him to San Andreas. 830 00:40:43,745 --> 00:40:45,138 I know that. 831 00:40:45,181 --> 00:40:46,574 So I don't know who-- 832 00:40:46,618 --> 00:40:49,447 When they say "This unit was advised," 833 00:40:49,490 --> 00:40:53,233 uh...it's--I don't know who they're referring to. 834 00:40:53,276 --> 00:40:54,495 I have no idea. 835 00:41:16,909 --> 00:41:18,388 To quote the cardinal's appointment letter, 836 00:41:18,432 --> 00:41:19,912 he put him in "full care 837 00:41:19,955 --> 00:41:22,610 of the souls of that parish in California." 838 00:41:22,654 --> 00:41:25,134 This way, it would have been the first time 839 00:41:25,178 --> 00:41:27,354 that I had the total responsibility for a parish. 840 00:41:27,397 --> 00:41:29,487 Up to that time, I was an associate. 841 00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:33,534 It was again working out in a nice, nice way for him 842 00:41:33,578 --> 00:41:38,408 that another situation had been smoothly handled. 843 00:41:38,452 --> 00:41:39,671 Do you remember, 844 00:41:39,714 --> 00:41:43,457 uh, receiving this letter from Father O'Grady? 845 00:41:43,501 --> 00:41:45,546 I don't remember it, but I recall-- 846 00:41:45,590 --> 00:41:47,026 You know, you show it to me. 847 00:41:47,069 --> 00:41:48,506 I presume I received it. 848 00:41:48,549 --> 00:41:50,333 Okay. Next sentence states, 849 00:41:50,377 --> 00:41:52,422 "I would like to write to you 850 00:41:52,466 --> 00:41:54,250 "as one of the first persons 851 00:41:54,294 --> 00:41:57,993 to whom I owe a great deal of gratitude." 852 00:41:58,037 --> 00:41:59,604 Period. 853 00:41:59,647 --> 00:42:01,475 "I sincerely thank you 854 00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:03,564 "for all that you have done for me 855 00:42:03,608 --> 00:42:06,219 in the past few months." 856 00:42:06,262 --> 00:42:10,484 Uh, what did you think he was referring to there 857 00:42:10,528 --> 00:42:13,226 when he made that statement? 858 00:42:13,269 --> 00:42:15,402 Uh, nothing in particular. 859 00:42:15,445 --> 00:42:18,536 I thought this was a overly effusive letter. 860 00:42:18,579 --> 00:42:20,581 I didn't really have that much relations-- 861 00:42:20,625 --> 00:42:22,235 personal relationship with him. 862 00:42:22,278 --> 00:42:25,238 He was not a priest that I would golf with 863 00:42:25,281 --> 00:42:26,935 or have dinner with or anything else, 864 00:42:26,979 --> 00:42:29,503 so he was, I think, 865 00:42:29,547 --> 00:42:32,288 quite flowery and effusive, basically. 866 00:42:32,332 --> 00:42:33,638 I honestly don't know. 867 00:42:33,681 --> 00:42:35,204 As I say, when I first-- 868 00:42:35,248 --> 00:42:36,597 when I saw this again, 869 00:42:36,641 --> 00:42:38,599 and I suspect the time when I got it, 870 00:42:38,643 --> 00:42:42,342 it's just an overly effusive letter 871 00:42:42,385 --> 00:42:44,474 that, uh... 872 00:42:44,518 --> 00:42:46,868 Next paragraph states, quote, 873 00:42:46,912 --> 00:42:49,610 "I am particularly grateful to you 874 00:42:49,654 --> 00:42:53,527 for your sensitivity to me and my needs at this time." 875 00:42:53,571 --> 00:42:56,269 What did you think he referred to there? 876 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,054 Uh, I don't remember. 877 00:42:59,098 --> 00:43:00,621 Really, as I say, I-- 878 00:43:00,665 --> 00:43:02,405 I just found the whole letter 879 00:43:02,449 --> 00:43:04,756 terribly, uh, overstated, 880 00:43:04,799 --> 00:43:06,627 and I imagine at the time 881 00:43:06,671 --> 00:43:10,631 I read it cursorily and filed it, uh, after-- 882 00:43:10,675 --> 00:43:11,632 It probably would have then-- 883 00:43:11,676 --> 00:43:13,460 I didn't answer it for some time. 884 00:43:13,503 --> 00:43:15,723 I--I didn't feel it was, uh... 885 00:43:15,767 --> 00:43:18,334 it was important or... 886 00:43:18,378 --> 00:43:20,032 I--I have no idea. 887 00:43:20,075 --> 00:43:23,339 At this point, uh, looking back at this 12 years ago, 888 00:43:23,383 --> 00:43:24,645 I can't remember what I thought 889 00:43:24,689 --> 00:43:25,907 when I read this letter. 890 00:43:25,951 --> 00:43:28,127 When I read this, I was just very puzzled. 891 00:43:28,170 --> 00:43:30,564 I couldn't imagine what he was referring to. 892 00:43:30,608 --> 00:43:32,000 I--I--I just didn't-- 893 00:43:32,044 --> 00:43:34,437 I personally didn't pay that much attention to it. 894 00:43:34,481 --> 00:43:35,700 You'll notice I didn't answer it 895 00:43:35,743 --> 00:43:37,745 till almost three weeks later. 896 00:43:58,897 --> 00:44:00,681 What Cardinal Mahony did is, 897 00:44:00,725 --> 00:44:02,161 he picked his own career, 898 00:44:02,204 --> 00:44:06,774 and he picked power and glory 899 00:44:06,818 --> 00:44:07,993 over the children. 900 00:44:08,036 --> 00:44:09,603 It's like the scene in the Gospel 901 00:44:09,647 --> 00:44:12,171 where it says that Satan took Christ 902 00:44:12,214 --> 00:44:14,608 to the, uh, top of a mountain, 903 00:44:14,652 --> 00:44:16,566 and showed Him all the cities in the world 904 00:44:16,610 --> 00:44:18,394 and all the glory over the world, 905 00:44:18,438 --> 00:44:19,961 and said, "This all can be yours 906 00:44:20,005 --> 00:44:21,876 if you'll just bow down and worship me." 907 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:23,704 I think that's what Cardinal Mahony did. 908 00:44:23,748 --> 00:44:26,141 It was the only thing he could do 909 00:44:26,185 --> 00:44:27,708 to keep his status 910 00:44:27,752 --> 00:44:31,712 and ultimately be exalted to Cardinal as he was, 911 00:44:31,756 --> 00:44:35,455 uh, not two years later. 912 00:44:35,498 --> 00:44:44,159 ♪ Allelujah 913 00:44:49,512 --> 00:44:51,079 To be married in the Church, 914 00:44:51,123 --> 00:44:52,646 uh, the Catholic Church, 915 00:44:52,690 --> 00:44:55,388 you go through a series of classes 916 00:44:55,431 --> 00:44:58,086 with the priest that, uh, that you're dealing with. 917 00:44:58,130 --> 00:45:01,350 In our case, it was Oliver O'Grady. 918 00:45:01,394 --> 00:45:02,961 Uh, those classes-- 919 00:45:03,004 --> 00:45:04,702 From what I've heard now, 920 00:45:04,745 --> 00:45:08,096 run between six and seven weeks, 921 00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:10,969 or six or seven sessions. 922 00:45:11,012 --> 00:45:14,102 Uh, my wife and I went in for our classes. 923 00:45:14,146 --> 00:45:17,540 We met with the p-- with O'Grady one time. 924 00:45:17,584 --> 00:45:20,195 Uh, he found out that I was in law enforcement, 925 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,676 and determined that we did not need 926 00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:25,810 any more further, uh, marital training, 927 00:45:25,853 --> 00:45:27,681 and, uh, signed us off, 928 00:45:27,725 --> 00:45:30,771 and, uh, we were able to get married in the Catholic Church 929 00:45:30,815 --> 00:45:34,383 with Oliver O'Grady presiding at our wedding. 930 00:45:34,427 --> 00:45:36,951 And he was the--the priest 931 00:45:36,995 --> 00:45:40,825 for one of the churches that encompassed half the county, 932 00:45:40,868 --> 00:45:44,829 uh, so he played a major role 933 00:45:44,872 --> 00:45:46,134 in a lot of people's lives, 934 00:45:46,178 --> 00:45:48,658 uh, a lot of families in Calaveras County. 935 00:45:48,702 --> 00:45:50,225 He's admitted 936 00:45:50,269 --> 00:45:52,793 that he spent as much time grooming victims 937 00:45:52,837 --> 00:45:54,752 as he did being a priest, 938 00:45:54,795 --> 00:45:57,232 and he was a priest for over 30 years, 939 00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,061 spending every waking hour 940 00:46:00,105 --> 00:46:02,847 planning abuse, executing abuse, 941 00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:04,762 thinking about abuse. 942 00:46:04,805 --> 00:46:08,678 So 365 days a year times 30. 943 00:46:08,722 --> 00:46:10,419 He has so many victims, 944 00:46:10,463 --> 00:46:12,204 I don't think he can keep track, 945 00:46:12,247 --> 00:46:14,423 and I think it's in the hundreds. 946 00:46:17,862 --> 00:46:20,734 How young are the molested kids? 947 00:46:20,778 --> 00:46:22,736 One's what, 3 months, 9 months? 948 00:46:22,780 --> 00:46:24,782 That was his youngest victim. 949 00:46:24,825 --> 00:46:25,783 Right. 950 00:46:25,826 --> 00:46:26,784 You know, 9 months. 951 00:46:26,827 --> 00:46:28,394 9 months. 952 00:46:28,437 --> 00:46:30,178 To abuse an infant, 953 00:46:30,222 --> 00:46:31,440 you really-- 954 00:46:31,484 --> 00:46:33,355 Part of what people have to do 955 00:46:33,399 --> 00:46:34,661 when they're talking about this-- 956 00:46:34,704 --> 00:46:35,836 and it's so hard, 957 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,446 and no one wants to do it-- 958 00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:39,971 is to really try to walk through 959 00:46:40,014 --> 00:46:44,671 and picture a grown man 960 00:46:44,714 --> 00:46:48,414 inserting-- forcing his penis 961 00:46:48,457 --> 00:46:50,851 into the vagina of a baby. 962 00:46:50,895 --> 00:46:52,810 Oliver, have you ever been diagnosed 963 00:46:52,853 --> 00:46:55,464 with a dissociative disorder? 964 00:46:55,508 --> 00:46:57,902 I'm sure I fit the category 965 00:46:57,945 --> 00:46:59,294 of a lot of disorders. 966 00:46:59,338 --> 00:47:00,774 Whatever they are, 967 00:47:00,818 --> 00:47:02,776 you name that, I'll--I'll jump. 968 00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:04,604 I'm not trying to be flippant here. 969 00:47:04,647 --> 00:47:06,432 And I am. I'm sorry. 970 00:47:06,475 --> 00:47:08,651 That's okay, but what I'm trying to say is, 971 00:47:08,695 --> 00:47:10,523 has anybody ever told you 972 00:47:10,566 --> 00:47:13,874 you may dissociate from events? 973 00:47:13,918 --> 00:47:15,615 I'm sure they have. 974 00:47:15,658 --> 00:47:16,616 Okay. 975 00:47:16,659 --> 00:47:17,835 Is it-- 976 00:47:17,878 --> 00:47:20,881 I mean, to me, as a lay person, 977 00:47:20,925 --> 00:47:22,970 when you molest somebody, 978 00:47:23,014 --> 00:47:24,537 it's sort of black and white: 979 00:47:24,580 --> 00:47:25,843 either you do or you don't. 980 00:47:25,886 --> 00:47:27,888 What I get from you, Oliver, is, 981 00:47:27,932 --> 00:47:29,542 in some instances, 982 00:47:29,585 --> 00:47:31,109 you're not sure if you molested people. 983 00:47:31,152 --> 00:47:32,458 Correct. 984 00:47:32,501 --> 00:47:34,808 Do you think that's because it didn't happen, 985 00:47:34,852 --> 00:47:36,897 or do you think that's because, 986 00:47:36,941 --> 00:47:39,334 either to deal with the trauma yourself, 987 00:47:39,378 --> 00:47:41,859 or to justify it or deal with guilt, 988 00:47:41,902 --> 00:47:44,339 whatever the malady you had was, 989 00:47:44,383 --> 00:47:46,211 do you may be disassociating 990 00:47:46,254 --> 00:47:48,474 from the reality of what actually occurred? 991 00:47:48,517 --> 00:47:50,824 I think that would be accurate, yes. 992 00:47:50,868 --> 00:47:52,913 He's a very dangerous man, 993 00:47:52,957 --> 00:47:59,354 and a--a aggressive, assaultive person, 994 00:47:59,398 --> 00:48:02,140 uh, who apparently would do anything 995 00:48:02,183 --> 00:48:03,663 to get to his victims, 996 00:48:03,706 --> 00:48:06,405 including having sex with their parents. 997 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,643 When I was little, I was always talking to everybody. 998 00:48:27,687 --> 00:48:32,257 Uh, and I feel like I had a lot of... 999 00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:35,651 more hope in me than--than, uh, doubt. 1000 00:48:35,695 --> 00:48:38,132 I'm sure you could ask all my teachers, 1001 00:48:38,176 --> 00:48:40,004 and they'd go, "Yeah. 1002 00:48:40,047 --> 00:48:44,660 Uh, smart guy. I don't know what happened to him." 1003 00:48:50,014 --> 00:48:54,322 O'Grady saw an easy mark in us 1004 00:48:54,366 --> 00:48:55,889 because we're brought up-- 1005 00:48:55,933 --> 00:48:57,804 I was brought up Catholic, 1006 00:48:57,847 --> 00:49:02,287 so automatically you see a guy with a...collar on... 1007 00:49:02,330 --> 00:49:04,550 you automatically trust him. 1008 00:49:04,593 --> 00:49:06,769 So he moved right in, 1009 00:49:06,813 --> 00:49:11,426 and, uh, Becky fell hook, line, and sinker. 1010 00:49:11,470 --> 00:49:14,038 You know, he was the wolf, 1011 00:49:14,081 --> 00:49:15,561 and I was the gatekeeper, 1012 00:49:15,604 --> 00:49:17,911 and I let the wolf through the gate. 1013 00:49:17,955 --> 00:49:21,132 That's what it's always felt like to me, you know? 1014 00:49:21,175 --> 00:49:23,134 And to know that you could be-- 1015 00:49:23,177 --> 00:49:25,963 that I could be so wrong. 1016 00:49:26,006 --> 00:49:30,619 I mean, how wrong could I have been? 1017 00:49:30,663 --> 00:49:33,274 I mean, to be so horribly wrong... 1018 00:49:35,798 --> 00:49:37,757 was absolutely devastating. 1019 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,456 His whole thing, he would get into the family 1020 00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:44,546 more than just with the children, you know, 1021 00:49:44,590 --> 00:49:48,637 so my mom had been, uh, involved with him, 1022 00:49:48,681 --> 00:49:50,900 and I think that was the-- 1023 00:49:50,944 --> 00:49:53,686 that was the killer one there, you know? 1024 00:49:54,992 --> 00:49:57,037 And early on I real-- 1025 00:49:57,081 --> 00:50:00,040 I realized early on that there was something wrong, 1026 00:50:00,084 --> 00:50:05,045 but my upbringing told me, nah, that can't happen. 1027 00:50:05,089 --> 00:50:09,267 I talk with a lot of, like, female survivors, 1028 00:50:09,310 --> 00:50:12,052 and they talk about, like, little--little games 1029 00:50:12,096 --> 00:50:16,056 to sort of... segue toward it, 1030 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:17,927 but with--it wasn't like that with me. 1031 00:50:17,971 --> 00:50:21,714 He just started in-- started right in: 1032 00:50:21,757 --> 00:50:26,023 grabbing me, touching me, making me touch him... 1033 00:50:26,066 --> 00:50:29,504 telling me that--why would my folks have brought me here 1034 00:50:29,548 --> 00:50:31,680 if they didn't think it was okay? 1035 00:50:31,724 --> 00:50:34,683 Why would they even have thought that? 1036 00:50:34,727 --> 00:50:36,772 Those are the things that he said. 1037 00:50:42,822 --> 00:50:48,567 I failed them once, and it was huge, 1038 00:50:48,610 --> 00:50:51,352 and I'll never do it again. 1039 00:50:51,396 --> 00:50:54,355 No, it will never happen again. 1040 00:50:54,399 --> 00:50:57,793 I will not ever... 1041 00:50:57,837 --> 00:51:00,144 I will never fail them again. 1042 00:51:00,187 --> 00:51:04,017 I was trimming those bushes, right there, 1043 00:51:04,061 --> 00:51:06,150 those little bushes, 1044 00:51:06,193 --> 00:51:08,065 the first time it happened. 1045 00:51:08,108 --> 00:51:10,023 I went into the house to eat lunch, 1046 00:51:10,067 --> 00:51:15,811 and then he just came in and closed the door 1047 00:51:15,855 --> 00:51:20,033 and he just held me down, held my head down, 1048 00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:23,167 and he fucking sodomized me right in there. 1049 00:51:23,210 --> 00:51:26,605 Right there. 1050 00:51:26,648 --> 00:51:29,173 That's not easy to say, you know. 1051 00:51:29,216 --> 00:51:33,829 Fuck, for years I never even spoke of it, 1052 00:51:33,873 --> 00:51:37,616 and every time I'd get close to a girl 1053 00:51:37,659 --> 00:51:42,838 or every time I'd feel like something was done wrong to me, 1054 00:51:42,882 --> 00:51:45,189 I'd go right there. 1055 00:51:45,232 --> 00:51:47,843 It would just go in the bin with it. 1056 00:51:47,887 --> 00:51:50,846 That's the kind of-- That's what this shit does. 1057 00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:54,633 It doesn't just hurt you. 1058 00:51:54,676 --> 00:51:57,157 In July of 1993 we had a family 1059 00:51:57,201 --> 00:52:00,073 that contacted the Calaveras County Sheriff's Department. 1060 00:52:00,117 --> 00:52:05,426 to report that a priest in San Andreas in Calaveras County 1061 00:52:05,470 --> 00:52:07,863 was molesting members of the family, 1062 00:52:07,907 --> 00:52:11,040 in the family. specifically two young boys 1063 00:52:11,084 --> 00:52:14,653 So the next day he called me 1064 00:52:14,696 --> 00:52:16,872 and he said he was having a problem. 1065 00:52:16,916 --> 00:52:18,439 and he was away from the parish. 1066 00:52:18,483 --> 00:52:23,052 I knew just talking to him that there was something wrong. 1067 00:52:23,096 --> 00:52:25,098 Then we told him we would help him. 1068 00:52:25,142 --> 00:52:27,100 I said, "If you didn't do any of these things 1069 00:52:27,144 --> 00:52:29,668 "to children, you have no problem. 1070 00:52:29,711 --> 00:52:32,671 There's no way anybody can accuse you of-- " 1071 00:52:32,714 --> 00:52:36,109 Even the word "molestation" never even entered my mind. 1072 00:52:36,153 --> 00:52:37,676 It was just "touching." 1073 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,112 I said, "If you didn't touch these kids 1074 00:52:39,156 --> 00:52:42,898 "in an inappropriate way or touched them sexually, 1075 00:52:42,942 --> 00:52:44,248 "you don't have anything to worry about. 1076 00:52:44,291 --> 00:52:45,901 You don't have a record." 1077 00:52:45,945 --> 00:52:49,383 Then he said, "Well, I had a problem nine years ago." 1078 00:52:49,427 --> 00:52:51,124 When we started our investigation, 1079 00:52:51,168 --> 00:52:55,694 we found out that this had not been the first incident 1080 00:52:55,737 --> 00:52:58,087 that he had been involved in. 1081 00:52:58,131 --> 00:53:01,700 Going back as far as the mid-seventies 1082 00:53:01,743 --> 00:53:06,531 he had been involved with molesting children. 1083 00:53:09,142 --> 00:53:12,101 It appeared to us 1084 00:53:12,145 --> 00:53:16,932 that there was a lot of knowledge about that 1085 00:53:16,976 --> 00:53:18,717 outside of our community 1086 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,633 but none of that information had reached us. 1087 00:53:21,676 --> 00:53:24,505 At that point we were supporting him. 1088 00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:26,507 Yeah. 1089 00:53:26,551 --> 00:53:30,729 Then he was concerned about his family and stuff. 1090 00:53:30,772 --> 00:53:32,513 So I talked to his family in Ireland 1091 00:53:32,557 --> 00:53:35,299 and told them that we would support him 1092 00:53:35,342 --> 00:53:37,170 and make sure he got represented 1093 00:53:37,214 --> 00:53:38,258 and everything like that. 1094 00:53:38,302 --> 00:53:40,173 At that point we obtained 1095 00:53:40,217 --> 00:53:41,740 arrest warrants for Oliver O'Grady 1096 00:53:41,783 --> 00:53:46,179 for multiple counts of lewd and lascivious acts with minors. 1097 00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:50,314 We served search warrants at the parish here in San Andreas, 1098 00:53:50,357 --> 00:53:54,318 the rectory here in San Andreas, 1099 00:53:54,361 --> 00:53:56,755 the diocese in Stockton, 1100 00:53:56,798 --> 00:54:00,193 and in law offices-- Not law offices, 1101 00:54:00,237 --> 00:54:03,762 but the offices of Cardinal Mahony in Los Angeles. 1102 00:54:03,805 --> 00:54:05,981 Then when he asked for the bail money 1103 00:54:06,025 --> 00:54:07,156 Bob went and got it. 1104 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,202 I went to work Monday morning-- 1105 00:54:09,246 --> 00:54:10,551 And I did. 1106 00:54:10,595 --> 00:54:15,164 And everybody at work knew who he was. 1107 00:54:15,208 --> 00:54:17,993 They knew he was my friend. 1108 00:54:18,037 --> 00:54:18,994 The newspapers had-- 1109 00:54:19,038 --> 00:54:20,561 It was kind of quiet. 1110 00:54:20,605 --> 00:54:22,346 I remember saying, "What's the matter with you guys? 1111 00:54:22,389 --> 00:54:26,001 How come you're all acting this way this morning?" 1112 00:54:26,045 --> 00:54:28,003 They said, "Did you read the paper?" 1113 00:54:28,047 --> 00:54:29,788 I said, "No, I haven't had time to read the paper yet. 1114 00:54:29,831 --> 00:54:31,746 Yeah. 1115 00:54:31,790 --> 00:54:34,183 It was exploded all over the front page of the newspaper. 1116 00:54:34,227 --> 00:54:38,797 I said, "There's no way Ollie would touch our kids." 1117 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,234 We didn't suspect. We didn't say anything. 1118 00:54:41,278 --> 00:54:42,366 Just no way. 1119 00:54:42,409 --> 00:54:44,106 Then I called Bob at work 1120 00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:47,371 and told him what I saw in the paper and everything. 1121 00:54:47,414 --> 00:54:50,591 I said-- And he said the same thing to me. 1122 00:54:50,635 --> 00:54:51,853 He said, "No way. 1123 00:54:51,897 --> 00:54:55,030 There's no way he would touch our kids." 1124 00:54:55,074 --> 00:55:01,036 Then it was almost like the fear of God got in me. 1125 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,038 I told-- He said, "Well, we have to ask them." 1126 00:55:03,082 --> 00:55:04,388 But then we went-- 1127 00:55:04,431 --> 00:55:06,825 I called her and I said, 1128 00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:08,392 "Ann, did you see the paper? 1129 00:55:08,435 --> 00:55:12,047 Did you read about Father Ollie in the paper?" 1130 00:55:12,091 --> 00:55:16,617 She said she didn't watch the news or something. 1131 00:55:16,661 --> 00:55:21,230 I said, "There's all these allegations against him." 1132 00:55:21,274 --> 00:55:25,234 The boys from-- It was the Howard kids at that time. 1133 00:55:25,278 --> 00:55:28,063 And, um... 1134 00:55:28,107 --> 00:55:30,065 I was ex-- When I said it to her 1135 00:55:30,109 --> 00:55:33,417 I was expecting a response like "Who's doing this?" 1136 00:55:33,460 --> 00:55:37,246 And it was nothing. It was just absolute silence. 1137 00:55:37,290 --> 00:55:39,074 Then I said to her-- I said, 1138 00:55:39,118 --> 00:55:40,728 "Ann, I have to ask you." 1139 00:55:40,772 --> 00:55:43,296 I said, "Did he ever touch you when you were a little girl?" 1140 00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:45,254 And she-- "I got to go, Mom. 1141 00:55:45,298 --> 00:55:48,083 I got to take care of the dog." 1142 00:55:48,127 --> 00:55:50,085 I just knew right then. 1143 00:55:50,129 --> 00:55:53,088 I just felt it. 1144 00:55:53,132 --> 00:55:54,220 She still wouldn't answer. 1145 00:55:54,263 --> 00:55:56,178 I said, "Bob, you have to call her." 1146 00:55:56,222 --> 00:55:59,660 I knew she wouldn't lie to Bob. 1147 00:55:59,704 --> 00:56:00,879 So I asked her. 1148 00:56:00,922 --> 00:56:02,271 She called him. 1149 00:56:02,315 --> 00:56:05,318 You called her. 1150 00:56:05,362 --> 00:56:09,888 I asked her if he had molested you. 1151 00:56:09,931 --> 00:56:11,324 You said, "Did he ever touch you?" 1152 00:56:11,368 --> 00:56:13,892 Yeah. "Did he ever touch-- " 1153 00:56:13,935 --> 00:56:16,895 And she said yes. 1154 00:56:16,938 --> 00:56:21,116 And the whole world collapsed. 1155 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:22,422 I could hear him crying. 1156 00:56:22,466 --> 00:56:24,337 I could hear Ann crying on the other side-- 1157 00:56:24,381 --> 00:56:28,123 I gave her back the phone, and... 1158 00:56:28,167 --> 00:56:30,909 She came over 1159 00:56:30,952 --> 00:56:32,563 and Case DeGroot came over. 1160 00:56:32,606 --> 00:56:37,350 At that point, it destroyed our lives. 1161 00:56:37,394 --> 00:56:38,699 From that day on it just-- 1162 00:56:38,743 --> 00:56:40,353 Destroyed our family. 1163 00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:41,441 Everything. 1164 00:56:41,485 --> 00:56:44,357 Then it's like you have flashbacks. 1165 00:56:44,401 --> 00:56:45,314 Why didn't I see this? 1166 00:56:45,358 --> 00:56:46,707 Why didn't I see that? 1167 00:56:46,751 --> 00:56:47,708 Right. 1168 00:56:47,752 --> 00:56:49,710 It was like... 1169 00:56:49,754 --> 00:56:50,929 It was terrible. 1170 00:56:50,972 --> 00:56:53,366 I kind of handed Ann over to this bastard 1171 00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:56,717 on a silver platter, just about. 1172 00:56:56,761 --> 00:56:57,936 How did he do it? 1173 00:56:57,979 --> 00:56:59,111 He just destroyed-- 1174 00:56:59,154 --> 00:57:01,374 How did we get fooled by him so much? 1175 00:57:01,418 --> 00:57:03,463 I used to go to work and he'd be here 1176 00:57:03,507 --> 00:57:07,380 saying his morning prayers. 1177 00:57:07,424 --> 00:57:08,729 Had the Bible in his hand 1178 00:57:08,773 --> 00:57:10,383 and he's saying morning prayers. 1179 00:57:10,427 --> 00:57:12,733 I said, "Good morning, Ollie." 1180 00:57:12,777 --> 00:57:15,736 Then he'd be in there at nighttime molesting Ann. 1181 00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:19,348 And during the night he's molesting my daughter. 1182 00:57:19,392 --> 00:57:20,349 Raping her! 1183 00:57:20,393 --> 00:57:23,527 Not molesting her! Raping her! 1184 00:57:23,570 --> 00:57:25,746 At five years old! 1185 00:57:25,790 --> 00:57:28,532 God's sakes! 1186 00:57:28,575 --> 00:57:32,753 How could that happen? 1187 00:57:32,797 --> 00:57:34,407 But that's what he did. 1188 00:57:43,242 --> 00:57:45,766 It's futile to ask "How can this be? 1189 00:57:45,810 --> 00:57:47,376 Why does this happen?" 1190 00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:49,553 The system, the monarchical, 1191 00:57:49,596 --> 00:57:52,556 hierarchical governmental system 1192 00:57:52,599 --> 00:57:55,384 that the people in charge of the Roman Catholic Church 1193 00:57:55,428 --> 00:58:01,434 from the Pope on down firmly believe was willed by almighty God 1194 00:58:01,478 --> 00:58:05,046 is the reason why Roger Mahony 1195 00:58:05,090 --> 00:58:06,221 is believed to be 1196 00:58:06,265 --> 00:58:09,442 substantially more important and better 1197 00:58:09,486 --> 00:58:13,751 than the children who were ravished by Oliver O'Grady. 1198 00:58:13,794 --> 00:58:17,406 My father won't walk me down the aisle 1199 00:58:17,450 --> 00:58:20,235 because he can't step in the church. 1200 00:58:20,279 --> 00:58:22,411 He's taken my wedding away from me, 1201 00:58:22,455 --> 00:58:24,239 everything in the future. 1202 00:58:24,283 --> 00:58:29,418 I constantly am battling to regain my life back. 1203 00:58:29,462 --> 00:58:31,246 Constantly. 1204 00:58:31,290 --> 00:58:34,249 I have never conceived a child. 1205 00:58:34,293 --> 00:58:36,251 I'm not married. 1206 00:58:36,295 --> 00:58:39,428 I'm 40 years old almost. 1207 00:58:39,472 --> 00:58:40,821 I'm 39. 1208 00:58:40,865 --> 00:58:46,479 I'm approaching 40 and it's still not over. 1209 00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:48,437 When did it stop? When she was 13? 1210 00:58:48,481 --> 00:58:50,439 12. 12, okay. 1211 00:58:50,483 --> 00:58:56,097 I asked her, "Why didn't you tell us earlier? Why?" 1212 00:58:57,664 --> 00:59:01,842 And her answer was to me 1213 00:59:01,886 --> 00:59:07,500 that I used to say that anybody who tried to hurt you, 1214 00:59:07,544 --> 00:59:10,285 I would kill him! 1215 00:59:10,329 --> 00:59:11,504 And... 1216 00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:15,421 I shouldn't have made that statement. 1217 00:59:15,464 --> 00:59:16,509 She told me that-- 1218 00:59:16,553 --> 00:59:19,294 She wouldn't say anything! 1219 00:59:19,338 --> 00:59:21,296 She asked a little girl what would happen 1220 00:59:21,340 --> 00:59:23,647 if your Dad killed somebody, 1221 00:59:23,690 --> 00:59:25,866 and they said that he would go to jail forever and ever 1222 00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:27,868 and never come out. 1223 00:59:27,912 --> 00:59:31,655 She said that day I decided I could never tell anybody 1224 00:59:31,698 --> 00:59:34,745 because she said, "I knew Dad would kill him." 1225 00:59:34,788 --> 00:59:39,663 It was her love for me that kept her from telling me. 1226 00:59:39,706 --> 00:59:43,667 And my love for her-- 1227 00:59:43,710 --> 00:59:47,496 I feel guilty about that, 1228 00:59:47,540 --> 00:59:51,500 but I feel betrayed by the Church. 1229 00:59:51,544 --> 00:59:56,680 The Church had betrayed me and my family! 1230 00:59:56,723 --> 00:59:59,552 They destroyed it. 1231 00:59:59,596 --> 01:00:02,729 By golly, I'm not going to let it destroy me now. 1232 01:00:03,730 --> 01:00:06,907 My name is Tom Doyle. 1233 01:00:06,951 --> 01:00:11,129 I've been a Catholic priest for 35 years. 1234 01:00:11,172 --> 01:00:13,697 I've been fired from two major positions 1235 01:00:13,740 --> 01:00:19,528 and sidetracked from two careers as a priest in the Church 1236 01:00:19,572 --> 01:00:24,577 because I've openly advocated for the victims 1237 01:00:24,621 --> 01:00:27,711 of clergy sexual abuse, 1238 01:00:27,754 --> 01:00:28,929 and according to some, 1239 01:00:28,973 --> 01:00:32,585 been much too critical and much too vocal 1240 01:00:32,629 --> 01:00:35,544 about the source of the cover-up: 1241 01:00:35,588 --> 01:00:39,723 the manipulation, the dishonesty 1242 01:00:39,766 --> 01:00:41,028 that comes from the top. 1243 01:00:41,072 --> 01:00:43,727 When we were serving the search warrants 1244 01:00:43,770 --> 01:00:46,555 the members of the Church that were responsible 1245 01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:51,952 for keeping those records threw up a lot of roadblocks 1246 01:00:51,996 --> 01:00:54,563 in having to contact their attorneys 1247 01:00:54,607 --> 01:00:57,610 to find out what they had to give to us. 1248 01:00:57,654 --> 01:00:59,177 Your duties as chancellor 1249 01:00:59,220 --> 01:01:02,746 encompass the entire diocese, correct? 1250 01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:03,790 Yes. 1251 01:01:03,834 --> 01:01:05,574 If a child had been sexually abused 1252 01:01:05,618 --> 01:01:07,228 during those years, 1253 01:01:07,272 --> 01:01:08,969 is it fair to say that that would have come to your attention 1254 01:01:09,013 --> 01:01:12,756 as Chancellor/Vicar General/ Auxiliary Bishop? 1255 01:01:12,799 --> 01:01:15,193 Calls for speculation. 1256 01:01:15,236 --> 01:01:16,760 During which years? 1257 01:01:16,803 --> 01:01:19,588 When you were an officer of the Diocese of Fresno 1258 01:01:19,632 --> 01:01:20,981 in any of those three offices. 1259 01:01:21,025 --> 01:01:25,769 Object to the term "officer of the diocese." 1260 01:01:25,812 --> 01:01:26,813 Go ahead. 1261 01:01:30,251 --> 01:01:33,602 I imagine I would have become aware of that during that time. 1262 01:01:33,646 --> 01:01:38,607 Your testimony is that no such event occurred? 1263 01:01:38,651 --> 01:01:41,654 No, my testimony is that I cannot recall 1264 01:01:41,698 --> 01:01:43,656 something like that occurring during that time. 1265 01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:47,442 Do you think if a child were raped during your tenure at Fresno 1266 01:01:47,486 --> 01:01:49,793 that that would be something that you would forget? 1267 01:01:49,836 --> 01:01:52,621 Object. Argumentative. 1268 01:01:52,665 --> 01:01:55,668 Harassing. Instruct the witness not to answer. 1269 01:01:55,712 --> 01:01:57,583 Do you think if a child molestation allegation 1270 01:01:57,626 --> 01:02:01,021 had been leveled, your Eminence, 1271 01:02:01,065 --> 01:02:04,242 while you were there acting as an official of the diocese 1272 01:02:04,285 --> 01:02:05,460 and it came to your attention, 1273 01:02:05,504 --> 01:02:08,028 that would be something you would forget? 1274 01:02:08,072 --> 01:02:09,638 I'm going to object. 1275 01:02:09,682 --> 01:02:14,252 Harassing. Argumentative. 1276 01:02:14,295 --> 01:02:15,819 Asked and answered. 1277 01:02:15,862 --> 01:02:17,821 Instruct the witness not to answer. 1278 01:02:17,864 --> 01:02:19,474 He hasn't answered that question. 1279 01:02:19,518 --> 01:02:21,738 Yes, he has. 1280 01:02:21,781 --> 01:02:24,262 When the diocese was relating to the police 1281 01:02:24,305 --> 01:02:25,829 and they didn't disclose the fact 1282 01:02:25,872 --> 01:02:28,701 that O'Grady had been previously accused, 1283 01:02:28,745 --> 01:02:32,705 do you think they were telling the whole truth? 1284 01:02:32,749 --> 01:02:34,054 Repeat that please. 1285 01:02:34,098 --> 01:02:37,841 In '84, when the diocese was talking to the police, 1286 01:02:37,884 --> 01:02:39,103 okay. 1287 01:02:39,146 --> 01:02:41,714 The diocese did not talk to the police in '84. 1288 01:02:41,758 --> 01:02:43,847 The diocese attorney did. 1289 01:02:43,890 --> 01:02:45,500 I didn't know that at the time. 1290 01:02:45,544 --> 01:02:47,285 Okay. 1291 01:02:47,328 --> 01:02:49,853 Do you think that somebody should have told the cops, Father-- 1292 01:02:49,896 --> 01:02:51,680 Or Monsignor, forgive me-- 1293 01:02:51,724 --> 01:02:54,727 that O'Grady had been previously accused? 1294 01:02:59,514 --> 01:03:01,299 It was in the hands of our attorney. 1295 01:03:01,342 --> 01:03:03,736 Now, hat should be done or what should not be done 1296 01:03:03,780 --> 01:03:05,738 would be his decision. 1297 01:03:09,133 --> 01:03:12,876 So basically you left it to your lawyer to decide 1298 01:03:12,919 --> 01:03:15,313 whether or not to tell the truth. 1299 01:03:15,356 --> 01:03:20,318 We left it to our lawyer to work in the investigation. 1300 01:03:20,361 --> 01:03:23,756 At that time, investigationolice 1301 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,062 that we had, 1302 01:03:25,105 --> 01:03:27,760 there was one guy who could speak the truth 1303 01:03:27,804 --> 01:03:30,545 and blow the whistle on Roger Mahony 1304 01:03:30,589 --> 01:03:32,765 having known about Olive O'Grady for years, 1305 01:03:32,809 --> 01:03:34,723 and that was Oliver O'Grady. 1306 01:03:34,767 --> 01:03:39,119 The night before he was scheduled to testify in that trial 1307 01:03:39,163 --> 01:03:44,559 the attorneys for Roger Mahony went to his jail cell, 1308 01:03:44,603 --> 01:03:47,780 cut a deal with him, 1309 01:03:47,824 --> 01:03:49,564 a very dark deal that said, 1310 01:03:49,608 --> 01:03:52,785 "Oliver, you take the contempt citation 1311 01:03:52,829 --> 01:03:56,571 "and refuse to testify even though you've been ordered to, 1312 01:03:56,615 --> 01:03:57,790 and we'll take care of you." 1313 01:03:57,834 --> 01:03:58,791 And they did. 1314 01:03:58,835 --> 01:04:00,749 Does the diocese of Stockton 1315 01:04:00,793 --> 01:04:03,143 or any of its representatives 1316 01:04:03,187 --> 01:04:06,799 provide for any economic support for you right now? 1317 01:04:09,628 --> 01:04:11,586 Not at the moment. 1318 01:04:11,630 --> 01:04:12,979 Have they in the past? 1319 01:04:15,634 --> 01:04:18,593 Not since I left the priesthood. 1320 01:04:18,637 --> 01:04:21,379 They didn't buy you an annuity? 1321 01:04:21,422 --> 01:04:22,946 I believe they did. 1322 01:04:22,989 --> 01:04:24,773 Do you get a check from that annuity? 1323 01:04:24,817 --> 01:04:27,385 No, that will not come into effect 1324 01:04:27,428 --> 01:04:30,823 until I'm 65. 1325 01:04:30,867 --> 01:04:32,781 Who holds that annuity? 1326 01:04:32,825 --> 01:04:36,176 I believe the diocese holds it. 1327 01:04:36,220 --> 01:04:37,612 Are you at all concerned, Oliver, 1328 01:04:37,656 --> 01:04:39,963 that if you give testimony that hurts the diocese 1329 01:04:40,006 --> 01:04:44,619 that they might revoke that? 1330 01:04:44,663 --> 01:04:46,839 I have a lot of concerns about a lot of things, 1331 01:04:46,883 --> 01:04:49,973 and I guess that would be one of them. 1332 01:04:50,016 --> 01:04:52,627 My parents don't get a pension from the Church. 1333 01:04:52,671 --> 01:04:55,804 They lost their whole financial stability from this. 1334 01:04:55,848 --> 01:04:56,805 Yeah. 1335 01:04:56,849 --> 01:04:59,808 They will never ever be the same. 1336 01:04:59,852 --> 01:05:01,810 My mother is forced into retirement. 1337 01:05:01,854 --> 01:05:05,423 My dad has to quit his job to take care of her. 1338 01:05:05,466 --> 01:05:07,642 Because of what? 1339 01:05:07,686 --> 01:05:08,948 Mm-hmm. 1340 01:05:08,992 --> 01:05:12,647 Because of some jackass that was running around 1341 01:05:12,691 --> 01:05:14,432 juggling 50 kids at a time, 1342 01:05:14,475 --> 01:05:17,000 and some raping mothers. 1343 01:05:17,043 --> 01:05:21,004 He abused my parents, too. 1344 01:05:21,047 --> 01:05:23,658 The Church abused my parents, too. 1345 01:05:23,702 --> 01:05:27,010 They took our tithes, they took our tuition money, 1346 01:05:27,053 --> 01:05:30,448 and they haven't returned any of that back to my family. 1347 01:05:30,491 --> 01:05:32,667 They deserve all of that back. 1348 01:05:32,711 --> 01:05:33,842 There is no excuse 1349 01:05:33,886 --> 01:05:36,671 that you pay to send your kid to school 1350 01:05:36,715 --> 01:05:39,022 to get raped, you know, 1351 01:05:39,065 --> 01:05:41,024 and to be molested in the basement 1352 01:05:41,067 --> 01:05:43,852 where you're supposed to be getting an education 1353 01:05:43,896 --> 01:05:45,942 or being called in his office 1354 01:05:45,985 --> 01:05:51,077 where he has full reign to do whatever he wants to you and send you back to class. 1355 01:05:53,297 --> 01:05:54,733 This case, 1356 01:05:54,776 --> 01:05:57,257 from the start to finish, was less than two months. 1357 01:05:57,301 --> 01:06:01,261 It was strange the speed in which that operated. 1358 01:06:01,305 --> 01:06:05,048 We just felt that there was a lot of things that were left hanging 1359 01:06:05,091 --> 01:06:07,702 in this investigation, 1360 01:06:07,746 --> 01:06:12,272 but because of the speed with which it went 1361 01:06:12,316 --> 01:06:15,884 we just weren't able to do our jobs as effectively as we could have. 1362 01:06:15,928 --> 01:06:20,498 But they were afraid of civil discoveryowers 1363 01:06:20,541 --> 01:06:22,717 the civil attorneys were going to find out 1364 01:06:22,761 --> 01:06:27,070 that the Church knew prior to Oliver's ordination 1365 01:06:27,113 --> 01:06:29,376 that he probably offended. 1366 01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:00,103 He got to serve seven years, 1367 01:07:00,146 --> 01:07:02,757 and I testified in the case that convicted him, 1368 01:07:02,801 --> 01:07:07,110 and he's over there living the life of Reilly. 1369 01:07:07,153 --> 01:07:10,983 He's having tea and living like a normal person. 1370 01:07:11,027 --> 01:07:14,421 He doesn't even have to report like people here do. 1371 01:07:25,041 --> 01:07:28,957 Seeing Oliver walk around loose with kidsis one thing, 1372 01:07:29,001 --> 01:07:32,004 but knowing that he was set up to do that 1373 01:07:32,048 --> 01:07:33,353 and he's allowed to do that 1374 01:07:33,397 --> 01:07:35,964 and he's going to be paid to do that by the Church 1375 01:07:36,008 --> 01:07:37,140 makes me furious. 1376 01:07:37,183 --> 01:07:39,794 I have to agree with Frank Keating. 1377 01:07:39,838 --> 01:07:41,579 He was the former governor of Oklahoma. 1378 01:07:41,622 --> 01:07:45,365 He compared this diocese and the Cardinal 1379 01:07:45,409 --> 01:07:47,019 to La Cosa Nostra. 1380 01:07:47,063 --> 01:07:49,804 In 2002, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops 1381 01:07:49,848 --> 01:07:52,590 asked former Oklahoma governor Frank Keating 1382 01:07:52,633 --> 01:07:54,374 to head a national review board 1383 01:07:54,418 --> 01:07:56,159 to scrutinize the Catholic Church, 1384 01:07:56,202 --> 01:07:57,812 hold bishops accountable, 1385 01:07:57,856 --> 01:08:00,163 and guide the Church in how to prevent, report, 1386 01:08:00,206 --> 01:08:02,600 and disclose sexual abuse. 1387 01:08:02,643 --> 01:08:05,168 Keating resigned after making critical comments 1388 01:08:05,211 --> 01:08:09,607 about how some diocese, including Los Angeles, 1389 01:08:09,650 --> 01:08:13,176 were and continue to be less than open with the public 1390 01:08:13,219 --> 01:08:15,917 and less than honest with themselves. 1391 01:08:15,961 --> 01:08:20,052 If you take the position that you won't get anything out of me without a subpoena, 1392 01:08:20,096 --> 01:08:22,185 the suggestion is you have something to hide. 1393 01:08:22,228 --> 01:08:25,405 For a faith institution, that's a terrible suggestion. 1394 01:08:25,449 --> 01:08:30,018 In Los Angeles, the documentation,oduce 1395 01:08:30,062 --> 01:08:31,324 the records-- 1396 01:08:31,368 --> 01:08:33,413 Where you find the truth, or most of the truth-- 1397 01:08:33,457 --> 01:08:37,200 by the District Attorney of Los Angeles County, 1398 01:08:37,243 --> 01:08:40,028 Cardinal Mahony's lawyers cooked up this myth 1399 01:08:40,072 --> 01:08:41,856 called "formation privilege" 1400 01:08:41,900 --> 01:08:45,077 which has no basis in canon law, civil law, 1401 01:08:45,121 --> 01:08:47,079 history, or theology, 1402 01:08:47,123 --> 01:08:50,648 that every communication between a bishop and one of his priests 1403 01:08:50,691 --> 01:08:56,175 is equal to confessional as far as confidentiality is concerned. 1404 01:08:56,219 --> 01:08:58,873 There are a lot of privileged communications 1405 01:08:58,917 --> 01:09:01,659 in the state of California. 1406 01:09:01,702 --> 01:09:06,446 One of them is reporters in news media of sources. 1407 01:09:06,490 --> 01:09:11,886 That's a very highly protected protection that you have. 1408 01:09:11,930 --> 01:09:16,891 There are between a husband and wife testifying against each other. 1409 01:09:16,935 --> 01:09:18,676 There are a whole list of them. 1410 01:09:18,719 --> 01:09:21,461 Those are protected communications, 1411 01:09:21,505 --> 01:09:24,072 and so a priest talking to his bishop 1412 01:09:24,116 --> 01:09:25,944 is a protected communication. 1413 01:09:27,293 --> 01:09:30,905 As Christian adults, 1414 01:09:30,949 --> 01:09:32,690 Catholic, non-Catholic, 1415 01:09:32,733 --> 01:09:36,084 Jewish, whatever, 1416 01:09:36,128 --> 01:09:38,086 we should always be in the business 1417 01:09:38,130 --> 01:09:40,176 of protecting children. 1418 01:09:42,743 --> 01:09:47,095 The one thing that always stuck with me 1419 01:09:47,139 --> 01:09:52,536 that Mahony didn't... 1420 01:09:59,543 --> 01:10:01,109 the children. 1421 01:10:01,153 --> 01:10:04,939 He didn't protect them. 1422 01:10:04,983 --> 01:10:06,941 He didn't come clean. 1423 01:10:06,985 --> 01:10:10,249 He has presided over, um... 1424 01:10:10,293 --> 01:10:13,513 the wholesale, uh, sexual abuse 1425 01:10:13,557 --> 01:10:15,733 of dozens and dozens and dozens of children 1426 01:10:15,776 --> 01:10:16,734 in his diocese. 1427 01:10:16,777 --> 01:10:18,170 Let me put it this way. 1428 01:10:18,214 --> 01:10:19,302 Cardinal Mahony's argument about the documents 1429 01:10:19,345 --> 01:10:22,740 is an argument David Koresh would love. 1430 01:10:22,783 --> 01:10:27,135 Basically, if doctrine lets you rape kids, 1431 01:10:27,179 --> 01:10:32,184 I guess that makes the Archdiocese of Los Angeles 1432 01:10:32,228 --> 01:10:33,229 an official cult. 1433 01:10:38,016 --> 01:10:40,148 The last place we found O'Grady 1434 01:10:40,192 --> 01:10:43,195 was living with a family in Thurles 1435 01:10:43,239 --> 01:10:45,980 in the shadow of the seminary he'd attended 1436 01:10:46,024 --> 01:10:47,417 with the full knowledge of the bishop, 1437 01:10:47,460 --> 01:10:49,984 of the rector of the seminary, with the full knowledge 1438 01:10:50,028 --> 01:10:52,770 and the family he was living with didn't know. 1439 01:10:52,813 --> 01:10:55,947 And the Garda, the police in Ireland, didn't know. 1440 01:10:58,819 --> 01:11:00,995 I could say that my life has been a failure. 1441 01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:05,348 I'd like to think that I can still make some good decisions 1442 01:11:05,391 --> 01:11:11,005 and even bright future for myself as a result. 1443 01:11:11,049 --> 01:11:14,008 So, do I always do the right things? 1444 01:11:14,052 --> 01:11:15,358 Obviously not, but-- 1445 01:11:15,401 --> 01:11:16,794 Heh heh. 1446 01:11:16,837 --> 01:11:21,233 I think what I'm doing right now is not alone. 1447 01:11:21,277 --> 01:11:23,366 The best thing, but I think the only thing, 1448 01:11:23,409 --> 01:11:25,803 I'm thinking of writing a letter 1449 01:11:25,846 --> 01:11:31,591 to each person that I have offended sexually in the past. 1450 01:11:31,635 --> 01:11:33,811 I do want to apologize to them. 1451 01:11:33,854 --> 01:11:37,597 I am-- But I don't want that 1452 01:11:37,641 --> 01:11:39,251 to be a simple statement. 1453 01:11:39,295 --> 01:11:42,210 I think they-- 1454 01:11:42,254 --> 01:11:43,821 Basically what I want to say to them: 1455 01:11:43,864 --> 01:11:45,213 It should not have happened. 1456 01:11:45,257 --> 01:11:49,217 It should not have happened. 1457 01:11:49,261 --> 01:11:50,393 If I could invite these people 1458 01:11:50,436 --> 01:11:53,831 to come and meet with me one on one 1459 01:11:53,874 --> 01:11:58,836 and give them the opportunity to, again, talk to me, 1460 01:11:58,879 --> 01:12:01,273 tell me what I did to them. 1461 01:12:01,317 --> 01:12:02,318 I need to hear that 1462 01:12:02,361 --> 01:12:04,624 and I think they need to say that. 1463 01:12:04,668 --> 01:12:06,409 I can't say it's hard to do this. 1464 01:12:06,452 --> 01:12:08,280 I'm kind of happy that I am doing it, 1465 01:12:08,324 --> 01:12:12,632 but it's going to be a very interesting reunion. 1466 01:12:12,676 --> 01:12:17,855 And I really, really, really hope they come. 1467 01:12:17,898 --> 01:12:20,248 "I'm writing this letter to you 1468 01:12:20,292 --> 01:12:22,381 "to invite you to meet with me. 1469 01:12:22,425 --> 01:12:26,080 "I would like to apologize to you again 1470 01:12:26,124 --> 01:12:29,649 "for the wrong I did to you. 1471 01:12:29,693 --> 01:12:33,871 "It is my hope that this opportunity will allow you 1472 01:12:33,914 --> 01:12:37,265 "the freedom to continue with your life 1473 01:12:37,309 --> 01:12:42,096 "knowing that I have acknowledged my actions of the past, 1474 01:12:42,140 --> 01:12:45,361 "and hopefully enabling you 1475 01:12:45,404 --> 01:12:50,104 to continue your life in a better way from now on." 1476 01:12:50,148 --> 01:12:52,759 "I need to acknowledge to you face to face 1477 01:12:52,803 --> 01:12:57,590 that I have molested you sexually for many years many years ago." 1478 01:12:57,634 --> 01:13:00,680 "In this way I will be able to respond and apologize 1479 01:13:00,724 --> 01:13:03,291 to all those I have offended in a sexual way." 1480 01:13:19,395 --> 01:13:21,919 He's a piece of crap, man. 1481 01:13:21,962 --> 01:13:24,704 He remembered all of our names. 1482 01:13:24,748 --> 01:13:29,187 I get so angry to even think that that guy's alive. 1483 01:13:30,971 --> 01:13:33,452 I would kill his mother. 1484 01:13:33,496 --> 01:13:35,715 I won't be quoting Scripture. 1485 01:13:35,759 --> 01:13:37,717 It won't open with a prayer, 1486 01:13:37,761 --> 01:13:40,938 except if anybody wants to, be they need a-- 1487 01:13:40,981 --> 01:13:44,332 It might not even close with a prayer. 1488 01:13:44,376 --> 01:13:46,944 I don't expect people to hug me when they leave. 1489 01:13:46,987 --> 01:13:48,336 I don't expect people-- 1490 01:13:48,380 --> 01:13:51,165 I hope they might shake hands with me, 1491 01:13:51,209 --> 01:13:53,516 and say, "Hey, yeah, it's over right now." 1492 01:13:53,559 --> 01:13:56,344 And I let them get on with their lives, 1493 01:13:56,388 --> 01:13:59,696 and I'm sure they'd be happy to let me get on with mine. 1494 01:13:59,739 --> 01:14:01,393 Come on down, you know? 1495 01:14:01,437 --> 01:14:03,177 We'll have a barbe-- It's stupid. 1496 01:14:04,570 --> 01:14:07,007 What the fuck is he thinking writing these letters? 1497 01:14:10,010 --> 01:14:12,404 Yeah, that's what we all need. 1498 01:14:12,448 --> 01:14:15,146 To see him? Are you kidding me? 1499 01:14:15,189 --> 01:14:17,409 We don't need anything from him. 1500 01:14:17,453 --> 01:14:19,063 I want to know what his motivation is. 1501 01:14:19,106 --> 01:14:22,414 I do not want to go over there so he can get his jollies off 1502 01:14:22,458 --> 01:14:25,373 collecting his little family of abuse victims. 1503 01:14:25,417 --> 01:14:28,768 Yeah, his little-- His little whatever. 1504 01:14:28,812 --> 01:14:30,553 My motivation of going over there-- 1505 01:14:30,596 --> 01:14:33,773 If I thought that he had a heart at all to touch, 1506 01:14:33,817 --> 01:14:34,861 it would be different. 1507 01:14:34,905 --> 01:14:36,994 But I think he's so far gone-- 1508 01:14:37,037 --> 01:14:40,388 But it would be to disclose as much as you can 1509 01:14:40,432 --> 01:14:43,000 about what you did while you were here 1510 01:14:43,043 --> 01:14:45,568 and putting the nail in Mahony's coffin 1511 01:14:45,611 --> 01:14:49,397 to get the truth about what he knew. 1512 01:14:49,441 --> 01:14:52,444 Those are the people. 1513 01:14:52,488 --> 01:14:54,011 Those are the letters, 1514 01:14:54,054 --> 01:14:59,277 and all I can say is Godspeed. 1515 01:15:00,452 --> 01:15:02,585 I hope to see all of you real soon. 1516 01:15:02,628 --> 01:15:07,590 I think the little girl that's 5 years old 1517 01:15:07,633 --> 01:15:13,421 that's scared and afraid of him is still afraid to go. 1518 01:15:13,465 --> 01:15:18,078 And then I think, "I'm a big girl now... 1519 01:15:20,646 --> 01:15:24,650 "and what I didn't have the courage as a child to tell him... 1520 01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:32,049 it might be nice to tell him something." 1521 01:15:32,092 --> 01:15:34,834 Healing myself wasn't going to-- 1522 01:15:34,878 --> 01:15:38,446 It was never pending on what happened to him. 1523 01:15:38,490 --> 01:15:41,493 That's-- It's within me to get better, 1524 01:15:41,537 --> 01:15:45,497 not based on anything that-- 1525 01:15:45,541 --> 01:15:48,065 I felt like if I was relying 1526 01:15:48,108 --> 01:15:53,287 on his punishment to heal myself, 1527 01:15:53,331 --> 01:15:56,943 it seems like that would be giving too much clout 1528 01:15:56,987 --> 01:15:59,859 to the pain that I'd gone through, you know? 1529 01:15:59,903 --> 01:16:03,646 To say that's what I am and that's who I am-- 1530 01:16:03,689 --> 01:16:07,301 That's not who I am, so... 1531 01:16:07,345 --> 01:16:12,089 When you were a little boy, 1532 01:16:12,132 --> 01:16:14,134 were you ever touched sexually by a priest? 1533 01:16:18,138 --> 01:16:19,313 Yes. 1534 01:16:19,357 --> 01:16:23,100 And what was that priest's name? 1535 01:16:23,143 --> 01:16:25,668 I can't remember. 1536 01:16:25,711 --> 01:16:28,496 Do you know where it happened? 1537 01:16:28,540 --> 01:16:30,673 When I was an altar boy at St. Michael's Church, 1538 01:16:30,716 --> 01:16:33,893 the event happened there. 1539 01:16:33,937 --> 01:16:35,721 How many times did it happen, Oliver? 1540 01:16:40,944 --> 01:16:44,512 Not many. I'd say two or three times. 1541 01:16:44,556 --> 01:16:46,558 I think we all go through 1542 01:16:46,602 --> 01:16:49,692 an exploratory stage of that, 1543 01:16:49,735 --> 01:16:53,347 but my older brother did abuse me. 1544 01:16:53,391 --> 01:16:56,568 Again, I find it hard to say the word "abuse" 1545 01:16:56,612 --> 01:17:00,790 because I did not consider that to be abuse at the time. 1546 01:17:00,833 --> 01:17:04,881 I think my older brother initiated it with me. 1547 01:17:07,405 --> 01:17:10,147 I remember in the early stages 1548 01:17:10,190 --> 01:17:13,585 feeling uncomfortable with that. 1549 01:17:13,629 --> 01:17:15,369 But later when I found out 1550 01:17:15,413 --> 01:17:18,721 that he was also... 1551 01:17:18,764 --> 01:17:21,419 being sexual with my sister, 1552 01:17:22,986 --> 01:17:27,425 I became curious and probably got involved that way. 1553 01:17:30,210 --> 01:17:33,170 So the incidents with your brother at a younger age, 1554 01:17:33,213 --> 01:17:35,955 the incidents with your brother at an older age when you were 15? 1555 01:17:35,999 --> 01:17:36,956 Yes. 1556 01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,741 Multiple incidents with your sister 1557 01:17:38,784 --> 01:17:40,394 when she was approximately nine. 1558 01:17:40,438 --> 01:17:41,482 Correct. 1559 01:17:41,526 --> 01:17:43,963 Then you had at least the two incidents 1560 01:17:44,007 --> 01:17:45,748 with the visiting priests 1561 01:17:45,791 --> 01:17:47,575 when you were 10 or 11. 1562 01:17:47,619 --> 01:17:48,794 Yes. 1563 01:17:52,450 --> 01:17:54,626 Have you ever thought, Oliver, 1564 01:17:54,670 --> 01:17:57,977 that some of your problems that you encountered as a priest 1565 01:17:58,021 --> 01:18:00,197 that led to your incarceration 1566 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:01,633 may be related to that? 1567 01:18:04,244 --> 01:18:06,420 I have thought about it, 1568 01:18:06,464 --> 01:18:08,814 but I can't seem to make a link. 1569 01:18:12,644 --> 01:18:15,995 I'm never going to get what I want out of this. 1570 01:18:16,039 --> 01:18:17,127 Not from Mahony. 1571 01:18:17,170 --> 01:18:20,783 I'm never going to see them all in jail. 1572 01:18:20,826 --> 01:18:22,654 So who gives a shit what they think? 1573 01:18:22,698 --> 01:18:24,003 You just do what you want to do 1574 01:18:24,047 --> 01:18:25,788 to take care of yourself. 1575 01:18:25,831 --> 01:18:28,616 To hell with them. 1576 01:18:28,660 --> 01:18:30,618 That's what you got to do. 1577 01:18:30,662 --> 01:18:33,665 We're trying to uncover the truth. 1578 01:18:33,709 --> 01:18:35,014 We're here to support you 1579 01:18:35,058 --> 01:18:38,017 and we're here to support all of the other kids, 1580 01:18:38,061 --> 01:18:42,674 because this is big business to the Church. 1581 01:18:42,718 --> 01:18:45,242 This is money to the Church. 1582 01:18:45,285 --> 01:18:47,679 It's like a big corporation. 1583 01:18:47,723 --> 01:18:49,246 We have to ask ourselves 1584 01:18:49,289 --> 01:18:52,249 who's paying for this nightmare, 1585 01:18:52,292 --> 01:18:54,468 for this crisis? 1586 01:18:54,512 --> 01:18:55,818 Who is obliged to get involved? 1587 01:18:55,861 --> 01:18:57,036 I think we all are. 1588 01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:59,038 One of the things that I've seen 1589 01:18:59,082 --> 01:19:02,694 in my time with people like yourselves 1590 01:19:02,738 --> 01:19:05,479 has been a change in the understanding of what church is. 1591 01:19:05,523 --> 01:19:07,046 Many of us, when I ask you, 1592 01:19:07,090 --> 01:19:08,700 "When you hear the word 'church,' 1593 01:19:08,744 --> 01:19:09,962 what comes to your mind?" 1594 01:19:10,006 --> 01:19:13,705 Most of us will think of bishops, the Vatican, 1595 01:19:13,749 --> 01:19:16,839 the hierarchy, church buildings. 1596 01:19:16,882 --> 01:19:18,666 That will be changing, it is changing, 1597 01:19:18,710 --> 01:19:20,059 because church is us. 1598 01:19:20,103 --> 01:19:22,235 It's right here in this room. 1599 01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:23,671 25 years ago, 1600 01:19:23,715 --> 01:19:28,285 Tom Doyle called the bishops to action 1601 01:19:28,328 --> 01:19:31,854 and put a plan before the U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops, 1602 01:19:31,897 --> 01:19:34,291 a comprehensive plan to address the crisis 1603 01:19:34,334 --> 01:19:35,858 of pedophilia in the priesthood. 1604 01:19:35,901 --> 01:19:37,511 Basically, they wrote a report 1605 01:19:37,555 --> 01:19:40,688 and said this is going to be a massive crisis 1606 01:19:40,732 --> 01:19:44,301 that's going to cost the Church a billion dollars unless you do something. 1607 01:19:44,344 --> 01:19:49,306 They found that there was a national crisis 1608 01:19:49,349 --> 01:19:52,875 of children being sexually abused by priests 1609 01:19:52,918 --> 01:19:55,529 on a massive scale. 1610 01:19:55,573 --> 01:19:56,879 I didn't know what they were doing. 1611 01:19:56,922 --> 01:19:58,750 I thought that they would take it and do something 1612 01:19:58,794 --> 01:20:00,143 because they were-- 1613 01:20:00,186 --> 01:20:01,753 the Catholic Bishops Conference in the United States 1614 01:20:01,797 --> 01:20:04,016 were forever giving pronouncements on everything 1615 01:20:04,060 --> 01:20:08,542 from nuclear war to the Boy Scouts to animal husbandry 1616 01:20:08,586 --> 01:20:09,761 to chewing gum. 1617 01:20:09,805 --> 01:20:11,110 You name it, they were giving pronouncements 1618 01:20:11,154 --> 01:20:12,720 on the morality of just about everything. 1619 01:20:12,764 --> 01:20:14,940 But on this, they stonewalled. 1620 01:20:14,984 --> 01:20:17,900 Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, 1621 01:20:17,943 --> 01:20:21,773 was head of what's called the Office of the Congregation 1622 01:20:21,817 --> 01:20:24,341 for the Doctrine of the Faith. 1623 01:20:24,384 --> 01:20:28,780 The head of my church, the successor to Peter, 1624 01:20:28,824 --> 01:20:30,913 the Holy Father, 1625 01:20:30,956 --> 01:20:33,741 was the person in charge of making sure 1626 01:20:33,785 --> 01:20:35,918 that priests didn't hurt children. 1627 01:20:35,961 --> 01:20:40,748 He was in charge of that office from 1978 until 2005. 1628 01:20:40,792 --> 01:20:42,925 He did a very poor job, 1629 01:20:42,968 --> 01:20:46,363 and basically was the one person besides the Pope 1630 01:20:46,406 --> 01:20:49,801 who could have stopped it, and he didn't. 1631 01:20:49,845 --> 01:20:54,197 What the bishops did is they squelched the report... 1632 01:20:56,852 --> 01:20:58,157 they went back to their dioceses, 1633 01:20:58,201 --> 01:21:01,378 and they carried on as normal. 1634 01:21:01,421 --> 01:21:03,815 They knew children were being victimized, 1635 01:21:03,859 --> 01:21:06,383 and they did absolutely nothing 1636 01:21:06,426 --> 01:21:09,386 except insure that law enforcement and the public 1637 01:21:09,429 --> 01:21:11,779 and the faithful would not find out. 1638 01:21:11,823 --> 01:21:15,392 The bishops have known that bishops, priests, and deacons 1639 01:21:15,435 --> 01:21:19,396 have been sexually the fourth century,nce 1640 01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,834 and it's been a severe major, major problem, 1641 01:21:22,878 --> 01:21:24,967 and they've never really been able to curb it. 1642 01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:28,405 Basically, you have a sexualized priesthood. 1643 01:21:28,448 --> 01:21:29,972 It's been sexualized for years, 1644 01:21:30,015 --> 01:21:32,409 that looks at child sexual abuse 1645 01:21:32,452 --> 01:21:35,847 no different than it does if you're having sex with a woman 1646 01:21:35,891 --> 01:21:40,634 because it's all a violation of clerical celibacy. 1647 01:21:40,678 --> 01:21:44,812 If all sex by definition was bad sex 1648 01:21:44,856 --> 01:21:46,945 because you weren't supposed to be having it, 1649 01:21:46,989 --> 01:21:50,862 then pedophilia is just another kind of bad sex. 1650 01:21:50,906 --> 01:21:52,820 There is no basis in the scriptures 1651 01:21:52,864 --> 01:21:54,997 for mandatory celibacy. 1652 01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:57,434 It's not mandated by Christ. 1653 01:21:57,477 --> 01:22:00,437 It's not justified anywhere in the gospels 1654 01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:03,831 or in the life and times and sayings of Christ. 1655 01:22:03,875 --> 01:22:06,008 All 12 apostles were married, 1656 01:22:06,051 --> 01:22:09,011 with probably the exception of John. 1657 01:22:09,054 --> 01:22:13,841 The first several dozen popes were married 1658 01:22:13,885 --> 01:22:15,582 and had children. 1659 01:22:15,626 --> 01:22:18,846 It's something that the institutional Church leaders 1660 01:22:18,890 --> 01:22:21,675 began to think about and tried to impose 1661 01:22:21,719 --> 01:22:24,461 at least from the fourth century. 1662 01:22:24,504 --> 01:22:26,680 Married priests, when they died, 1663 01:22:26,724 --> 01:22:30,032 their inheritance went to their oldest son. 1664 01:22:30,075 --> 01:22:32,904 So the institutionalized Church leaders, 1665 01:22:32,948 --> 01:22:36,473 desiring to stop this practice, began to mandate celibacy 1666 01:22:36,516 --> 01:22:40,912 so that when a priest's property had to pass after he died 1667 01:22:40,956 --> 01:22:43,262 it would go to the bishop or to the Church. 1668 01:22:43,306 --> 01:22:44,872 What we have to remember is a lot of the priests 1669 01:22:44,916 --> 01:22:47,266 who have been reported as offenders 1670 01:22:47,310 --> 01:22:50,704 went into the seminary at a minor seminary 1671 01:22:50,748 --> 01:22:53,272 at ages 14, 15, 16. 1672 01:22:53,316 --> 01:22:56,884 They may have been thinking about a vocation even earlier. 1673 01:22:56,928 --> 01:22:59,191 They got stopped. 1674 01:22:59,235 --> 01:23:02,716 They got literally arrested in their psychosexual development. 1675 01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,503 They're nurtured in an attitude of negativity 1676 01:23:06,546 --> 01:23:09,506 toward relationships, toward women, 1677 01:23:09,549 --> 01:23:11,943 toward marriage, and toward sexuality, 1678 01:23:11,987 --> 01:23:13,901 and they never really fully understand 1679 01:23:13,945 --> 01:23:15,642 what any of these are all about. 1680 01:23:15,686 --> 01:23:17,949 So when these men 1681 01:23:17,993 --> 01:23:21,083 became unable to be celibate 1682 01:23:21,126 --> 01:23:24,521 or when their sexual urges overpowered them, 1683 01:23:24,564 --> 01:23:28,742 they sought out victims who they experienced at some level 1684 01:23:28,786 --> 01:23:31,006 as psychosexual peers. 1685 01:23:33,965 --> 01:23:35,749 The L.A. Timesrecently reported 1686 01:23:35,793 --> 01:23:40,754 that 10% of the seminary graduates from St. John's Seminary, 1687 01:23:40,798 --> 01:23:43,105 where the vast majority of priests in the western U.S. 1688 01:23:43,148 --> 01:23:44,628 went to the seminary, 1689 01:23:44,671 --> 01:23:48,936 a full 10% since 1960 of their graduates are pedophiles. 1690 01:23:48,980 --> 01:23:50,764 Perpetrators of children. 1691 01:23:50,808 --> 01:23:51,939 10%. 1692 01:23:51,983 --> 01:23:54,333 If Yale was producing 10% of its students 1693 01:23:54,377 --> 01:23:56,553 that became to be perpetrators, 1694 01:23:56,596 --> 01:23:57,858 somebody would take action. 1695 01:23:57,902 --> 01:24:01,123 In Boston, after the final settlements were made 1696 01:24:01,166 --> 01:24:05,953 for about $85 million a couple of years ago, 1697 01:24:05,997 --> 01:24:08,782 one of the priests said publicly at an interview, 1698 01:24:08,826 --> 01:24:11,133 "Thank God this clergy crisis is over. 1699 01:24:11,176 --> 01:24:13,309 Now we can get back to normal." 1700 01:24:13,352 --> 01:24:15,354 The situation was far worse 1701 01:24:15,398 --> 01:24:19,358 than even what the most hardened cynic 1702 01:24:19,402 --> 01:24:20,794 thought was going on. 1703 01:24:20,838 --> 01:24:24,494 Cardinal Law was the Archbishop of Boston. 1704 01:24:24,537 --> 01:24:27,888 Presided over some of the worst sexual abusers 1705 01:24:27,932 --> 01:24:30,195 in the history of the Church. 1706 01:24:30,239 --> 01:24:32,850 It was something 1707 01:24:32,893 --> 01:24:36,158 that ultimately caused Cardinal Law to step down. 1708 01:24:36,201 --> 01:24:38,116 You would think, if you presided 1709 01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:41,206 over the abuse of, uh, dozens of children, 1710 01:24:41,250 --> 01:24:44,427 that that would mean you would be sent to a punishment. 1711 01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:46,951 You know, the Vatican didn't even make it a secret. 1712 01:24:46,994 --> 01:24:49,127 They thought he was unfairly accused in the media. 1713 01:24:49,171 --> 01:24:51,347 They made him the Cardinal Archbishop 1714 01:24:51,390 --> 01:24:53,436 of this church in Rome, 1715 01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:57,570 and he actually presided at Pope John Paul II's funeral Mass. 1716 01:24:57,614 --> 01:24:59,398 What's happening in Los Angeles 1717 01:24:59,442 --> 01:25:03,098 does in many ways dwarf what happened in Boston. 1718 01:25:03,141 --> 01:25:05,361 As of June 2002, 1719 01:25:05,404 --> 01:25:09,800 we had over 100 criminal investigations ongoing, 1720 01:25:09,843 --> 01:25:14,848 and that encompassed over 100 individual priests. 1721 01:25:14,892 --> 01:25:16,459 What that tells you 1722 01:25:16,502 --> 01:25:20,158 is how large the scope of this problem is. 1723 01:25:20,202 --> 01:25:23,727 I think the Vatican is looking for a way 1724 01:25:23,770 --> 01:25:26,251 to say "We've solved this," 1725 01:25:26,295 --> 01:25:29,036 and they are scapegoating-- 1726 01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:32,170 because so many of the victims were male victims, 1727 01:25:32,214 --> 01:25:34,433 they're scapegoating the homosexual priests 1728 01:25:34,477 --> 01:25:36,957 and saying "If we get rid of the homosexual priests, 1729 01:25:37,001 --> 01:25:38,220 then we'll be rid of this problem." 1730 01:25:38,263 --> 01:25:40,918 Most men who abuse children 1731 01:25:40,961 --> 01:25:43,050 are heterosexual. 1732 01:25:43,094 --> 01:25:45,140 The Bishops' Conference, I think, 1733 01:25:45,183 --> 01:25:47,881 would like to project that this problem is now over with. 1734 01:25:47,925 --> 01:25:50,188 It's taken care of. They have solved it, 1735 01:25:50,232 --> 01:25:51,624 and it's now under control, 1736 01:25:51,668 --> 01:25:56,063 which is a normal corporate approach 1737 01:25:56,107 --> 01:25:58,805 to something of this nature. 1738 01:25:58,849 --> 01:26:01,068 I'm sure that the guys in Enron thought that, too, 1739 01:26:01,112 --> 01:26:02,896 when they were, uh, discovered. 1740 01:26:02,940 --> 01:26:04,681 Every day, every week, 1741 01:26:04,724 --> 01:26:09,338 I learn of another, uh, uh, child, young adult, 1742 01:26:09,381 --> 01:26:12,210 uh, uh, offended by a cleric 1743 01:26:12,254 --> 01:26:15,213 who hasn't been disclosed before this day, 1744 01:26:15,257 --> 01:26:19,217 and my fear is, my belief is, that there are not hundreds, 1745 01:26:19,261 --> 01:26:21,611 but there are thousands of offenders 1746 01:26:21,654 --> 01:26:24,483 yet to be exposed and disclosed 1747 01:26:24,527 --> 01:26:26,833 still roaming the churches 1748 01:26:26,877 --> 01:26:28,922 in the landscapes in this U.S., 1749 01:26:28,966 --> 01:26:30,620 and tens of thousands-- 1750 01:26:30,663 --> 01:26:32,578 tens of thousands worldwide. 1751 01:26:32,622 --> 01:26:34,232 What is a good Catholic? 1752 01:26:34,276 --> 01:26:36,495 A good Catholic traditionally 1753 01:26:36,539 --> 01:26:38,454 is someone who kept their mouth shut, 1754 01:26:38,497 --> 01:26:40,412 their pocketbook open, you know-- 1755 01:26:41,587 --> 01:26:43,023 Paid, prayed, and obeyed, 1756 01:26:43,067 --> 01:26:44,242 was docile, went to Mass, 1757 01:26:44,286 --> 01:26:45,809 obeyed all the Commandments, 1758 01:26:45,852 --> 01:26:47,376 went to Confession on a regular basis. 1759 01:26:47,419 --> 01:26:51,380 For the most part, was ritualized, obedient, and quiet. 1760 01:26:51,423 --> 01:26:53,599 But a good Catholic is not that at all. 1761 01:26:53,643 --> 01:26:55,166 A good Catholic is a Catholic 1762 01:26:55,210 --> 01:26:56,820 in the model of Jesus Christ: 1763 01:26:56,863 --> 01:26:58,778 a revolutionary, 1764 01:26:58,822 --> 01:27:00,302 someone who's not afraid-- 1765 01:27:03,870 --> 01:27:05,394 Someone who's not afraid 1766 01:27:05,437 --> 01:27:07,831 to get up and speak the truth. 1767 01:27:07,874 --> 01:27:11,791 Remember, the only time Christ ever got angry 1768 01:27:11,835 --> 01:27:13,532 was when He went to church. 1769 01:27:13,576 --> 01:27:17,232 And as we speak, Tom Doyle goes to Rome, 1770 01:27:17,275 --> 01:27:19,321 not because the Pope's gonna hear him, 1771 01:27:19,364 --> 01:27:22,193 but because he has to do what they should be doing, 1772 01:27:22,237 --> 01:27:24,326 and making those known offenders, 1773 01:27:24,369 --> 01:27:25,762 such as Oliver O'Grady, 1774 01:27:25,805 --> 01:27:28,112 who now resides in Ireland, 1775 01:27:28,155 --> 01:27:31,898 uh, known to the community as an offender. 1776 01:27:31,942 --> 01:27:34,161 I think a lot of the people in Rome 1777 01:27:34,205 --> 01:27:35,467 are in deep denial 1778 01:27:35,511 --> 01:27:37,991 about just how serious this issue is. 1779 01:27:38,035 --> 01:27:40,777 Never attempted this before, honestly. 1780 01:27:40,820 --> 01:27:43,127 Pronto. 1781 01:27:43,170 --> 01:27:45,608 Mi chiamo Patrizio Wall. 1782 01:27:45,651 --> 01:27:49,176 Uh, I'm calling, uh, Father Tom Doyle, 1783 01:27:49,220 --> 01:27:51,266 who is in America. 1784 01:27:51,309 --> 01:27:54,225 Yes, you know Father Thomas? 1785 01:27:54,269 --> 01:27:57,533 Yeah. He will be coming to Rome. 1786 01:27:57,576 --> 01:28:00,057 As far as I know, he's in Rome, 1787 01:28:00,100 --> 01:28:01,972 trying to help two victims, 1788 01:28:02,015 --> 01:28:04,017 one of whom's our client, Ann Jyono. 1789 01:28:04,061 --> 01:28:06,324 Uh, they have an appointment 1790 01:28:06,368 --> 01:28:07,891 with somebody at the Holy See 1791 01:28:07,934 --> 01:28:10,415 to--to hear their-- their complaint. 1792 01:28:14,724 --> 01:28:17,379 I'm doing this for my daughter, 1793 01:28:17,422 --> 01:28:18,771 but I said to her, 1794 01:28:18,815 --> 01:28:21,470 "if you do it for the other victims 1795 01:28:21,513 --> 01:28:23,559 "and the children... 1796 01:28:23,602 --> 01:28:26,431 "or... 1797 01:28:26,475 --> 01:28:28,259 the kids..." 1798 01:28:30,043 --> 01:28:32,872 "I'll help." 1799 01:28:32,916 --> 01:28:34,787 By golly. 1800 01:28:36,223 --> 01:28:39,096 People got to know! 1801 01:28:39,139 --> 01:28:40,750 It's not right. 1802 01:28:40,793 --> 01:28:42,360 They haven't a clue, you know, 1803 01:28:42,404 --> 01:28:44,971 if it hasn't happened to them. 1804 01:28:45,015 --> 01:28:46,408 Nobody has a clue. 1805 01:28:46,451 --> 01:28:48,845 They have no idea what it does to people. 1806 01:28:48,888 --> 01:28:50,281 And we're not victims-- 1807 01:28:50,325 --> 01:28:51,674 Destroys you everywhere. 1808 01:28:51,717 --> 01:28:53,893 ...in that sense, but Ann was a victim. 1809 01:28:53,937 --> 01:28:57,375 She was raped by this priest! 1810 01:28:57,419 --> 01:29:01,379 People understand, he isn't a pedophile, he's a rapist! 1811 01:29:02,598 --> 01:29:05,427 My anger's so hard. 1812 01:29:35,195 --> 01:29:36,849 Right now, I'm in Rome, 1813 01:29:36,893 --> 01:29:38,895 and I'm waiting to meet with the Jyonos, 1814 01:29:38,938 --> 01:29:40,287 a family whose children 1815 01:29:40,331 --> 01:29:43,465 have been sexually abused by Oliver O'Grady. 1816 01:29:43,508 --> 01:29:46,598 Uh, I've not met them. I'm going to meet them, 1817 01:29:46,642 --> 01:29:50,080 and my purpose is to hopefully help them 1818 01:29:50,123 --> 01:29:52,952 begin a healing process. 1819 01:29:52,996 --> 01:29:54,476 Good morning. How are you doing? 1820 01:29:54,519 --> 01:29:55,520 Good morning. 1821 01:29:57,479 --> 01:29:59,394 How do you feel? 1822 01:30:06,488 --> 01:30:07,880 This is Ann. 1823 01:30:16,411 --> 01:30:17,934 And what I'm gonna do is, 1824 01:30:17,977 --> 01:30:20,632 if we preface this with a short sentence 1825 01:30:20,676 --> 01:30:22,765 and say... 1826 01:30:22,808 --> 01:30:25,942 bishops, archbishops, and cardinals 1827 01:30:25,985 --> 01:30:28,553 have consistently lied to us and to the public 1828 01:30:28,597 --> 01:30:30,729 and to law enforcement agencies 1829 01:30:30,773 --> 01:30:32,818 about the cover-up 1830 01:30:32,862 --> 01:30:35,691 of sexual abuse by the clergy, period. 1831 01:30:35,734 --> 01:30:38,607 Uh, we'll address it to the Pope, 1832 01:30:38,650 --> 01:30:41,218 and it'll be from you specifically, 1833 01:30:41,261 --> 01:30:43,873 but speaking in the name of all those 1834 01:30:43,916 --> 01:30:45,962 who have been victimized and molested, 1835 01:30:46,005 --> 01:30:48,486 and I'm gonna put it in language that they will-- 1836 01:30:48,530 --> 01:30:50,183 direct language they'll understand. 1837 01:32:47,910 --> 01:32:50,913 A lot has changed in the Catholic Church this year, 1838 01:32:50,956 --> 01:32:52,610 but it's still having trouble 1839 01:32:52,654 --> 01:32:55,526 responding to the victims of sexual abuse by priests. 1840 01:32:55,570 --> 01:32:58,834 Today, two American women came to the Vatican 1841 01:32:58,877 --> 01:33:02,446 hoping to deliver a letter to the new Pope. 1842 01:33:02,489 --> 01:33:04,927 The guards wouldn't let them in. 1843 01:33:04,970 --> 01:33:09,584 Since we are survivors of clergy abuse, 1844 01:33:09,627 --> 01:33:11,890 it has been a very difficult journey, 1845 01:33:11,934 --> 01:33:14,632 and we have come thousands of miles 1846 01:33:14,676 --> 01:33:16,895 to try to plead 1847 01:33:16,939 --> 01:33:20,246 for some sort of mercy and assistance 1848 01:33:20,290 --> 01:33:23,685 with our journey in pain and healing. 1849 01:33:23,728 --> 01:33:26,905 We seek, uh, to regain our faith. 1850 01:33:37,437 --> 01:33:39,831 And instead of... 1851 01:33:39,875 --> 01:33:42,355 embracing them, reaching out to them, 1852 01:33:42,399 --> 01:33:44,880 the institutional church not only rejected them, 1853 01:33:44,923 --> 01:33:46,664 but they revictimized them. 1854 01:33:46,708 --> 01:33:49,362 They abused them by pointing them out to be-- 1855 01:33:49,406 --> 01:33:51,626 making them out to be an enemy of the Church. 1856 01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:53,976 I--I got them alone at one point 1857 01:33:54,019 --> 01:33:56,979 and expressed a sincere apology, 1858 01:33:57,022 --> 01:33:59,503 my profound regrets as to what had happened to them, 1859 01:33:59,546 --> 01:34:00,722 and I apologized to them 1860 01:34:00,765 --> 01:34:02,027 in the name of the institution, 1861 01:34:02,071 --> 01:34:03,463 the clergy, and the priests, 1862 01:34:03,507 --> 01:34:05,683 which I am still legally a part of. 1863 01:34:05,727 --> 01:34:07,685 And both of them said, 1864 01:34:07,729 --> 01:34:10,645 "No one has ever said this to us before." 1865 01:34:50,423 --> 01:34:51,773 I made up my mind. 1866 01:34:51,816 --> 01:34:53,339 There is no God. 1867 01:34:53,383 --> 01:34:56,995 I do not believe in a God, all right? 1868 01:34:57,039 --> 01:35:01,260 All of these rules, everything... 1869 01:35:01,304 --> 01:35:04,611 they're made up by man, you know? 1870 01:35:04,655 --> 01:35:08,572 I've tried to find... 1871 01:35:08,615 --> 01:35:11,836 what it is that... 1872 01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:14,230 brought religion to where it is today, 1873 01:35:14,273 --> 01:35:16,580 why, you know, 1874 01:35:16,623 --> 01:35:20,845 what differences and, um... 1875 01:35:20,889 --> 01:35:23,456 the similarities in all of them, 1876 01:35:23,500 --> 01:35:25,720 and I think that that's a big thing for me 1877 01:35:25,763 --> 01:35:28,853 is that they all... 1878 01:35:28,897 --> 01:35:33,815 share some common theme or philosophy at some level, 1879 01:35:33,858 --> 01:35:39,211 and you can't say "This one, not that one" 1880 01:35:39,255 --> 01:35:42,301 without alienating someone, so-- 1881 01:35:42,345 --> 01:35:45,087 and that's not-- that wasn't the message 1882 01:35:45,130 --> 01:35:48,873 of Jesus or Buddha or Mohammad or anybody, 1883 01:35:48,917 --> 01:35:51,789 so what's-- 1884 01:35:51,833 --> 01:35:54,705 They're already off-base at that point, 1885 01:35:54,749 --> 01:35:56,620 and that happened a long time ago, 1886 01:35:56,663 --> 01:36:02,104 so...I think it's just all... 1887 01:36:02,147 --> 01:36:03,801 all where... 1888 01:36:03,845 --> 01:36:05,760 the only place it could have gone 1889 01:36:05,803 --> 01:36:07,849 is the wrong direction. 1890 01:36:07,892 --> 01:36:09,807 What we need to do as a Church 1891 01:36:09,851 --> 01:36:12,810 is to acknowledge our good days and our bad days, 1892 01:36:12,854 --> 01:36:14,943 our good times and our bad times. 1893 01:36:14,986 --> 01:36:17,293 Somehow we always seem to look back 1894 01:36:17,336 --> 01:36:21,210 and say, "Well, there were dark moments and times 1895 01:36:21,253 --> 01:36:22,646 "in our history. 1896 01:36:22,689 --> 01:36:24,822 We would rather not dwell on them." 1897 01:36:24,866 --> 01:36:26,824 In a very poetic way, you see? 1898 01:36:26,868 --> 01:36:28,652 And that's very nice. 1899 01:36:28,695 --> 01:36:30,523 But it's not reality. 1900 01:36:30,567 --> 01:36:32,438 What I'd like to hear to say, "Hey, 1901 01:36:32,482 --> 01:36:34,832 "you know, we had one heck of an awful time 1902 01:36:34,876 --> 01:36:36,399 there in the Middle Ages." 1903 01:36:36,442 --> 01:36:40,490 But you know what? We're still here. 1904 01:36:40,533 --> 01:36:42,797 And that's the point, 1905 01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:44,624 if the Church could see it. 1906 01:36:56,419 --> 01:37:01,206 ♪ I've heard there was a secret chord ♪ 1907 01:37:01,250 --> 01:37:04,906 ♪ That David played, and it pleased the Lord ♪ 1908 01:37:04,949 --> 01:37:09,824 ♪ But you don't really care for music ♪ 1909 01:37:09,867 --> 01:37:13,479 ♪ Do you? 1910 01:37:13,523 --> 01:37:17,788 ♪ Well, it goes like this: the fourth, the fifth ♪ 1911 01:37:17,832 --> 01:37:21,661 ♪ The minor fall, the major lift ♪ 1912 01:37:21,705 --> 01:37:25,840 ♪ The baffled king composing ♪ 1913 01:37:25,883 --> 01:37:28,146 ♪ Hallelujah 1914 01:37:29,452 --> 01:37:33,369 ♪ Hallelujah 1915 01:37:33,412 --> 01:37:37,199 ♪ Hallelujah 1916 01:37:37,242 --> 01:37:41,899 ♪ Hallelujah 1917 01:37:41,943 --> 01:37:48,601 ♪ Hallelujah 1918 01:37:55,173 --> 01:37:58,916 ♪ Maybe there's a God above ♪ 1919 01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:03,442 ♪ But all that I've ever learned from love ♪ 1920 01:38:03,486 --> 01:38:07,446 ♪ Was how to shoot somebody ♪ 1921 01:38:07,490 --> 01:38:11,842 ♪ Who outdrew you 1922 01:38:11,886 --> 01:38:16,499 ♪ It's not a cry that you hear at night ♪ 1923 01:38:16,542 --> 01:38:19,241 ♪ It's not somebody who's seen the light ♪ 1924 01:38:19,284 --> 01:38:22,548 And I'm here speaking on behalf of Brandon... 1925 01:38:23,941 --> 01:38:27,902 with his parents today 1926 01:38:27,945 --> 01:38:31,906 because this offender... 1927 01:38:31,949 --> 01:38:33,820 is still in ministry. 1928 01:38:33,864 --> 01:38:36,258 ♪ Hallelujah 1929 01:38:36,301 --> 01:38:40,001 ♪ Hallelujah 1930 01:38:40,044 --> 01:38:47,704 ♪ Hallelujah 1931 01:38:53,928 --> 01:38:57,540 ♪ Baby, I've been here before ♪ 1932 01:38:57,583 --> 01:39:01,936 ♪ I've seen this room, and I've walked this floor ♪ 1933 01:39:01,979 --> 01:39:08,507 ♪ I used to live alone before I knew you ♪ 1934 01:39:10,074 --> 01:39:14,209 ♪ I've seen your flag on the marble arch ♪ 1935 01:39:14,252 --> 01:39:18,474 ♪ And love is not a victory march ♪ 1936 01:39:18,517 --> 01:39:25,046 ♪ It's a cold, and it's a broken Hallelujah ♪ 1937 01:39:26,612 --> 01:39:30,268 ♪ Hallelujah 1938 01:39:30,312 --> 01:39:34,838 ♪ Hallelujah 1939 01:39:34,881 --> 01:39:38,450 ♪ Hallelujah 1940 01:39:38,494 --> 01:39:46,328 ♪ Hallelujah 1941 01:39:51,637 --> 01:39:55,815 ♪ Well, there was a time when you'd let me know ♪ 1942 01:39:55,859 --> 01:40:00,081 ♪ What's really going on below ♪ 1943 01:40:00,124 --> 01:40:05,912 ♪ But now you never show that to me, do you? ♪ 1944 01:40:08,089 --> 01:40:13,703 ♪ But remember when I moved in you ♪ 1945 01:40:13,746 --> 01:40:17,011 ♪ And the Holy Dove was moving too ♪ 1946 01:40:17,054 --> 01:40:24,975 ♪ And every breath we drew was Hallelujah ♪ 1947 01:40:25,019 --> 01:40:28,544 ♪ Hallelujah 1948 01:40:28,587 --> 01:40:33,027 ♪ Hallelujah 1949 01:40:33,070 --> 01:40:37,031 ♪ Hallelujah 1950 01:40:37,074 --> 01:40:43,515 ♪ Hallelujah 1951 01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:54,613 ♪ You say I took the name in vain ♪ 1952 01:40:54,657 --> 01:40:58,661 ♪ I don't even know the name ♪ 1953 01:40:58,704 --> 01:41:00,706 ♪ And if I did 1954 01:41:00,750 --> 01:41:05,102 ♪ Well, really, what's it to you? ♪ 1955 01:41:06,712 --> 01:41:11,935 ♪ There's a blaze of light in every word ♪ 1956 01:41:11,978 --> 01:41:15,069 ♪ It doesn't matter which you heard ♪ 1957 01:41:15,112 --> 01:41:21,205 ♪ The holy or the broken Hallelujah ♪ 1958 01:41:23,251 --> 01:41:27,124 ♪ Hallelujah 1959 01:41:27,168 --> 01:41:31,041 ♪ Hallelujah 1960 01:41:31,085 --> 01:41:35,306 ♪ Hallelujah 1961 01:41:35,350 --> 01:41:43,097 ♪ Hallelujah 1962 01:41:48,798 --> 01:41:53,063 ♪ I did my best, but it wasn't much ♪ 1963 01:41:53,107 --> 01:41:57,198 ♪ I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch ♪ 1964 01:41:57,241 --> 01:41:59,200 ♪ I've told the truth 1965 01:41:59,243 --> 01:42:03,160 ♪ I didn't come here to fool you ♪ 1966 01:42:05,423 --> 01:42:10,211 ♪ And even though it all went wrong ♪ 1967 01:42:10,254 --> 01:42:13,910 ♪ I'll stand before the Lord of Song ♪ 1968 01:42:13,953 --> 01:42:19,959 ♪ With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah ♪ 1969 01:42:21,831 --> 01:42:25,313 ♪ Hallelujah 1970 01:42:25,356 --> 01:42:29,926 ♪ Hallelujah 1971 01:42:29,969 --> 01:42:33,886 ♪ Hallelujah 1972 01:42:33,930 --> 01:42:41,590 ♪ Hallelujah