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On December 1st,
2002

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Dilawar, a young
Afghan taxi driver

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took three
passengers for a ride.

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He never returned home.

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When the sun
started to go down,

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the sand started blowing,
so it was

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a like a big dust bowl
and I'm thinking,

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boy is it gonna be like
this every night?

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I remember walking in
there for the

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first time and the smell,
the smell's

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the first thing that hit you.

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I'm a man from DC, if
you've ever been

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to the National Zoo
when you walk

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into the elephant house there,

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that's the best way
to describe it.

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There's a few of us
that lived in

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the prison and I was
one of them.

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They built it up to be a
big scary place

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to the prisoners.

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After then
invasion of Afghanistan,

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US forces occupied Bagram,
an old Soviet air base

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as a place to collect
and interrogate

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thousands of detainees, captured

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throughout Afghanistan
and Pakistan.

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These were
suspected Taliban.

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They were being caught by
Special Forces

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throughout the countryside,
brought to Bagram

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and be held,
interrogated to determine

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if they were a high
value prisoner.

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These were
not nice people at all.

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They were very evil people who

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definitely had
violent intentions.

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On December 5,
2002,

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Dilawar, the taxi driver,
was brought

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to Bagram, he was
designated a PUC,

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person under control,
number 421.

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He was something to
do with a trigger man

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for a rocket attack and
that's about all I know.

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Five days after
his arrival, he was dead.

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I would say this was around
'bout 05:00 in the morning

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and as I walked by, Dilawar,
I think

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that's his name, Dilawar,
I walked by

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Dilawar's cell and I
noticed he was

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just kinda hanging
there with his head down

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but he was being too
still to be just

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hanging there and sleeping.

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Sergeant Curtis
opened up the door

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and we went in and he
was unresponsive

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and we started CPR.

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I was downstairs in
general population

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then I heard a call
come in asking

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for Cammack to come
upstairs, he was a medic

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and we carried him
downstairs on the stretcher

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and Cammack was still
on top of him

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while we were carrying him down,

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still trying to get
him back going

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all the way down the stairs,
got him

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to the front door and
they kept working on him

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and kept working on him
until the doctor

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got there and
pronounced him dead.

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I don't know whether there

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was an injury that was
aggravated by something

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or whether he was just
sick coming in.

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They're very frail
people and I was surprised

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that it had taken
that long for one

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of em to die in our custody.

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It was a sense of,
definitely a sense of concern

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because he was the second one.

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Just a week
before Dilawar's death,

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another detainee at
Bagram had died.

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You know, you wonder,
is it something

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we did or did somebody
kill him or something

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but I just didn't know.

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According
to the medical examiner,

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the first detainee to die,
Habibullah,

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had a pre-existing
pulmonary condition

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but it was the
beatings he sustained

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in Bagram that led to
the cause of his death

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a blood clot that
traveled to his lungs.

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When the second one
died a week later

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that's when it was like oh crap,

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something was gonna happen now,

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yes, two prisoners
dying within a week

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of each other, that's bad.

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A
preliminary investigation

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into Dilawar's death
revealed deep bruises

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all over his body, but
did not conclude

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that his treatment at
Bagram was to blame.

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The next day, they
said just draw out

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how he was shackled up
here and I made

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that little crude drawing.

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The ceiling of these
isolation rooms

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was just a simple metal
grate and it was

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thick enough you could
put handcuffs

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through the wires of
that and you just

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kind of chain em up like that,

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out to the sides like this.

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Forced
standing for long periods

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had inflamed tissue
damage from blows

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to Dilawar's legs, but
the initial Bagram

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press release failed to mention

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overhead shackling or beatings.

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It declared that both detainees

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had died of natural causes.

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My opinion is that
the military

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wanted to get this
over and get this

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done quickly, before
it really got noticed.

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Soon after
Dilawar's death,

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the officer in charge
of interrogation

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at Bagram, Captain Carolyn Wood

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was awarded the Bronze
Star for Valor.

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Following the Iraq invasion,
Wood

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and her intelligence
unit were given

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a new assignment, Abu Ghraib.

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The only thing I can
really remember

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about Abu Ghraib was the heat,
it was like

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a 148 degrees or so there
and it was all concrete.

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You know, Abu Ghraib
also had that infamous

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torture chambers and stuff
left from Saddam's era.

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I remember walking
through those and seeing

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fingernail marks on the
walls and blood stains

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and guillotines and
stuff like that

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it was a pretty surreal feeling.

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We went to Abu Ghraib, I
believe in July,

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July August of 2003 to
start that prison.

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You put people in a
crazy situation

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and people do crazy things

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and Abu was getting
mortared every night.

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These 120mm mortars
killing prisoners.

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The first time that happened,
they should

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have evacuated those
prisoners to somewhere else.

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Because the prisoners
weren't safe.

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People were being
told to rough up Iraqis

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that wouldn't cooperate,
we were also told

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they're nothing but dogs,
then all of a sudden

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you start looking at
these people

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as less than human and you start

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doing things to em you
would never dream of

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and that's where it got scary.

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It was only the night shift,

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there's always a few bad apples.

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It's been a body blow
for all of us.

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This is clearly an
isolated incident.

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The conduct of a
very very small

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number of our leaders
and soldiers.

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In the
wake of media attention

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surrounding Abu Ghraib,
the military

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began a series of
investigations.

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The people who
engaged in abuses

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will be brought to justice,
the world

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will see how a free
system, a democratic system

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functions and operates
transparently with no cover ups.

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The Secretary and
others have said

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well, you know, we've conducted

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12 investigations, each
and all of which

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were geared to looking downward,

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Down toward Lynndie
England and Graner

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and not looking up.

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The
soldiers in the photos

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are Military Police, or MPS,
whose job

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it was to guard and
protect the prisoners.

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In their statements,
the MPs claimed

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that Military Intelligence or MI

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ordered them to weaken,
humiliate

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and break the prisoners
for interrogation purposes.

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Obviously what they were doing

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in those pictures was
not sanctioned

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by the interrogation
rules of engagement

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and they weren't interrogators,

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so yes, I did think that
they were bad apples.

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However, I also think
that they were

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taking cues from Intel.

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Just reading reports
that was happening

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in Afghanistan, I
mean humiliation

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trying to break people
came from somewhere.

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MPs didn't think of it,
MPs were not

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ever trained in such things.

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We should have never
been breaking anybody.

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I can tell you we set
the same policy

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at Abu we set at Bagram,
same exact rules.

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Same thing was going on.

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They wonder why it happened.

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In her
sworn testimony

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about Abu Ghraib,
Captain Wood said

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she felt pressured to
produce intelligence

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so she brought
unauthorized techniques

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dogs, nudity, sleep depravation
and stress positions

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to Abu Ghraib from Afghanistan.

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Wood maintained that
the Bagram model

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had tacit approval
from superiors

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but US Central Command had never

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responded to her requests
for authorization

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so the mystery remained,
was Abu Ghraib

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the work of a few bad
apples or evidence

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of a new worldwide system on
detention and interrogation?

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I'm pretty sure that
interrogators

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were telling the guards,
strip this guy naked

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chain him up to the
bed in an uncomfortable

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position do whatever
you can and then

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they just decided to
take it one step further

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and have some fun with,
and take pictures.

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You've always got people
in the military

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who are just this side
of the Marquis de Sade

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and one of the reasons
you want rules

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and this code of conduct
to help you lead

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mud Marines and mud grunts,
Infantry

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is so that you can
use those tools

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to restrict this tendency
in your soldiers.

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When you have your friends dying

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on your left and right,
you can sometimes go

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beyond the pail, so a
Lieutenant, a Captain

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down where the rubber
meets the road

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needs these tools and he needs

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to be able to punish
people who cross the line.

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When the Secretary
walked through

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my door into my office
about the time

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the photos of Abu Ghraib
were getting ready

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to come out and we had
rumor they were

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coming out, he said to me
I need to know

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what happened and why,
and so then

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I began to build both
an open source

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and an inside the government,
classified

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and unclassified document
file and I began

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to see legal arguments as to why

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the President could
pretty much do anything

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he wanted to in the
name of security

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and the Secretary of
Defense and others

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beneath him were
actually looking for

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00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:33,916
the twin pressures that
they put on people

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that is to say the
pressure to produce

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intelligence and the fact that

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they were saying the
gloves are off

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created the
environment in the field

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that we later saw reflected in

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the photographs from Abu Ghraib

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and in my few, far more
serious fashion

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than the photographs we saw,
98 deaths

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of people in detention,
which I understand now

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00:14:57,026 --> 00:14:59,202
from my Army colleagues
is up to some

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25 of which have been
declared officially

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by the Army as homicides.

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People say well
these photographs

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from Abu Ghraib, they
weren't real torture

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I look back at those
people and I say

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murder's torture, murder's
the ultimate torture.

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In the case of Dilawar,
he was subjected to

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certainly cruel and
unusual punishment

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and ultimately, he was subjected

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to torture because he died.

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It's not our
intent for people

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to die, especially when
we're seeking

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to get information from them.

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Did the
treatment they received

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in those rooms cause the
death of these two men?

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First,
we're not chaining

256
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,262
people to the ceiling, I
think you asked

257
00:15:59,306 --> 00:16:00,524
me that question before.

258
00:16:00,568 --> 00:16:01,961
First, we're not chaining

259
00:16:02,004 --> 00:16:04,354
people to the ceiling,
that's what he says.

260
00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:07,488
Carlotta
Gall is a New York Times

261
00:16:07,531 --> 00:16:08,706
journalist based in Kabul.

262
00:16:09,925 --> 00:16:12,188
Unsatisfied with the
military's explanation

263
00:16:12,232 --> 00:16:15,800
of the two deaths at Bagram,
she set out to investigate.

264
00:16:23,504 --> 00:16:25,419
It took a long time to
find the family

265
00:16:25,462 --> 00:16:27,551
because the military
didn't tell us

266
00:16:27,595 --> 00:16:29,945
who they were and we
started calling around

267
00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:34,297
Governors, they're very
simple farming family

268
00:16:34,341 --> 00:16:35,907
they don't speak English,
but they

269
00:16:35,951 --> 00:16:38,867
showed me a paper that
was given to them

270
00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:42,001
with the body and that's
when I opened it up

271
00:16:42,044 --> 00:16:43,654
and read it and it
was in English

272
00:16:43,698 --> 00:16:45,091
and it was a death
certificate from

273
00:16:45,134 --> 00:16:48,659
the American Military and
it was signed by

274
00:16:48,703 --> 00:16:51,793
a US Major who was
the pathologist

275
00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:53,577
and there were four boxes
and she'd ticked

276
00:16:53,621 --> 00:16:55,014
the box for homicide.

277
00:16:57,103 --> 00:17:00,062
I said my god they've
killed him and we then

278
00:17:00,106 --> 00:17:02,064
had to tell the
family do you know

279
00:17:02,108 --> 00:17:04,327
what's written here
and they said no

280
00:17:04,371 --> 00:17:05,981
it's in English we
don't understand

281
00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:08,070
and I think maybe the Red Cross

282
00:17:08,114 --> 00:17:10,551
who helped return the
body had explained

283
00:17:10,594 --> 00:17:13,684
but they hadn't taken
it in and then

284
00:17:13,728 --> 00:17:16,861
the pathologist had said
it was this blunt

285
00:17:16,905 --> 00:17:18,776
force trauma to the legs.

286
00:17:19,690 --> 00:17:21,083
In other words, did they receive

287
00:17:21,127 --> 00:17:25,348
any trauma, any blunt
injury trauma as we call it?

288
00:17:26,741 --> 00:17:28,482
Presently I
have no indiction of that

289
00:17:28,525 --> 00:17:32,094
but we will be looking
as this investigation

290
00:17:32,138 --> 00:17:34,444
continues to go down
its due course.

291
00:17:34,488 --> 00:17:37,447
Presently have no
indication of that

292
00:17:37,491 --> 00:17:40,189
you know, there's been a
death certificate

293
00:17:40,233 --> 00:17:42,670
signed by his people and he says

294
00:17:43,801 --> 00:17:45,281
presently I have no
indication of any

295
00:17:45,325 --> 00:17:46,630
blunt force trauma
and it's written

296
00:17:46,674 --> 00:17:49,546
on the death certificate,
which I've seen.

297
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:51,070
The story probably
would have gone away

298
00:17:51,113 --> 00:17:53,637
had it not been for my
colleague, Carlotta Gall

299
00:17:53,681 --> 00:17:56,162
who tracked down
Dilawar's family

300
00:17:56,205 --> 00:17:59,861
and found the knife in
the back clue

301
00:17:59,904 --> 00:18:02,907
that told everyone that
this incident

302
00:18:02,951 --> 00:18:05,562
had been something other
than the military portrayed.

303
00:18:07,303 --> 00:18:08,391
Tim
Golden picked up

304
00:18:08,435 --> 00:18:10,524
the trail of the
story and obtained

305
00:18:10,567 --> 00:18:13,527
a confidential file of
the Army investigation

306
00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:15,746
including hundreds of
pages of testimony

307
00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:17,052
from the soldiers involved.

308
00:18:18,227 --> 00:18:19,489
Part of what
made this story

309
00:18:19,533 --> 00:18:20,925
compelling to me was
that you had

310
00:18:20,969 --> 00:18:23,102
these young soldiers
with very little training

311
00:18:23,145 --> 00:18:25,365
or preparation, thrown
into this situation

312
00:18:25,408 --> 00:18:28,107
in the aftermath of 9/11
just as the rules

313
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:29,978
were changing and
they weren't told

314
00:18:30,021 --> 00:18:32,328
what the new rules
were and you had

315
00:18:32,372 --> 00:18:34,287
this young Afghan
man who came in

316
00:18:34,330 --> 00:18:36,419
to this system at the wrong time

317
00:18:36,463 --> 00:18:38,160
and in the wrong way
and this is what

318
00:18:38,204 --> 00:18:40,075
happened to him.

319
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,034
I saw his picture in
the New York Times article

320
00:18:43,078 --> 00:18:44,558
before that picture, I
couldn't have

321
00:18:44,601 --> 00:18:48,039
picked his face out, you know,
my memory

322
00:18:48,083 --> 00:18:50,868
of him was chained up
with the hood on,

323
00:18:50,912 --> 00:18:52,261
no sleeping.

324
00:18:53,958 --> 00:18:55,351
Following
questions raised

325
00:18:55,395 --> 00:18:57,832
by the New York Times and
under scrutiny

326
00:18:57,875 --> 00:19:00,313
from the Abu Ghraib scandal,
the Army

327
00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:03,403
finally stepped up the
Dilawar investigation

328
00:19:03,446 --> 00:19:07,146
and began charging
soldiers with maltreatment

329
00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:09,626
maiming and homicide.

330
00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:11,846
When you're working
with the organization

331
00:19:11,889 --> 00:19:13,717
like the military,
they're gonna hold

332
00:19:13,761 --> 00:19:15,545
somebody accountable,
you can sweep

333
00:19:15,589 --> 00:19:18,374
some things under the
rug, but this was a death

334
00:19:18,418 --> 00:19:20,289
it was two deaths and okay fine,

335
00:19:20,333 --> 00:19:21,899
they're gonna charge people.

336
00:19:21,943 --> 00:19:23,988
It seemed like the
military now,

337
00:19:24,032 --> 00:19:25,773
after they got a black eye
from Abu Ghraib

338
00:19:25,816 --> 00:19:29,037
wanted to get a public
opinion that they were

339
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,127
policing their
soldiers and so they

340
00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:34,085
said we had this
incident that happened

341
00:19:34,129 --> 00:19:36,044
a couple of years ago,
we can still

342
00:19:36,087 --> 00:19:37,567
prosecute some of them.

343
00:19:39,047 --> 00:19:40,353
I had nothing to do
with the military

344
00:19:40,396 --> 00:19:41,615
for two years and
all of a sudden

345
00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:42,964
I'm getting a call saying that

346
00:19:43,007 --> 00:19:44,531
I'm being court-martialed,
I mean

347
00:19:44,574 --> 00:19:46,272
that was a huge surprise for me.

348
00:19:47,403 --> 00:19:48,752
From the defense perspective,

349
00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,842
I immediately said this
is a political show trial.

350
00:19:51,886 --> 00:19:53,975
Willie Brand is a good soldier

351
00:19:54,018 --> 00:19:55,977
good soldiers tend to
obey orders,

352
00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:57,457
good soldiers tend to be people

353
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,199
who do what they're
trained to do.

354
00:20:01,461 --> 00:20:03,680
The interrogators
on the ground

355
00:20:03,724 --> 00:20:04,899
for the most part didn't know

356
00:20:04,942 --> 00:20:06,683
what the rules were,
they'd never been

357
00:20:06,727 --> 00:20:08,424
interrogators before.

358
00:20:08,468 --> 00:20:11,558
My interrogation
training consisted

359
00:20:11,601 --> 00:20:14,604
of basically they taught
us some approaches

360
00:20:14,648 --> 00:20:17,694
how to get people to
talk and then

361
00:20:17,738 --> 00:20:21,350
here, go, go watch these
guys interrogate

362
00:20:21,394 --> 00:20:24,005
which were the people
that we were replacing

363
00:20:24,048 --> 00:20:26,790
for about five, six hours before

364
00:20:26,834 --> 00:20:28,836
I did my first interrogation.

365
00:20:28,879 --> 00:20:30,185
Damien was picked for this job

366
00:20:30,229 --> 00:20:34,015
because he's big, he's
loud and he's scary

367
00:20:34,058 --> 00:20:36,017
that was his qualification.

368
00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:38,541
Soldiers are dying, get
the information.

369
00:20:38,585 --> 00:20:41,196
That's all you're told,
get the information.

370
00:20:42,893 --> 00:20:44,286
Soldiers said that
when prisoners

371
00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:47,246
like Dilawar came in to
Bagram they were

372
00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:51,598
immediately assaulted.

373
00:20:51,641 --> 00:20:54,470
They blasted music at em, often

374
00:20:54,514 --> 00:20:57,299
they had dogs barking
at em and they

375
00:20:57,343 --> 00:21:00,563
would use some of the
most menacing

376
00:21:00,607 --> 00:21:04,350
interrogators to create
this sense of threat

377
00:21:04,393 --> 00:21:06,265
one of those was
Damien Corsetti.

378
00:21:07,527 --> 00:21:08,745
With the screening
you're trying to instill

379
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:10,878
what's call shock of
capture, when the person

380
00:21:10,921 --> 00:21:12,619
first comes in, that's
when they're most

381
00:21:12,662 --> 00:21:14,447
apt to give you
information because

382
00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:16,144
they're just like holy crap,
you know

383
00:21:16,187 --> 00:21:17,754
- what's going on.
- It's not just that

384
00:21:17,798 --> 00:21:19,669
the disorientation
procedure, it's actually

385
00:21:19,713 --> 00:21:21,715
a terrorizing procedure,
it's designed

386
00:21:21,758 --> 00:21:24,021
to terrify you into
spilling the beans

387
00:21:24,065 --> 00:21:26,415
as it were, being spat at,
being sworn at

388
00:21:26,459 --> 00:21:27,938
having the dogs barking around,

389
00:21:27,982 --> 00:21:29,679
cameras flashing in your face.

390
00:21:29,723 --> 00:21:31,333
Keep in mind, in their culture

391
00:21:31,377 --> 00:21:34,205
that dog's more shocking to them

392
00:21:34,249 --> 00:21:36,251
than it is to us,
kinda like a woman

393
00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:38,340
telling em what to do, you know,

394
00:21:38,384 --> 00:21:39,385
it's a cultural thing,
so you get

395
00:21:39,428 --> 00:21:40,647
more bang for your
buck over there

396
00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:42,779
- with the dog.
- And then to be re-shackled

397
00:21:42,823 --> 00:21:46,174
completely naked, and to
do what they call

398
00:21:46,217 --> 00:21:49,873
the body search, the
cavity search

399
00:21:49,917 --> 00:21:52,528
and then to be questioned
naked, shivering.

400
00:21:56,227 --> 00:21:57,403
After they're read their rules

401
00:21:57,446 --> 00:21:58,969
and everything, they're
taken to their cell

402
00:21:59,013 --> 00:22:00,362
to where they're gonna be put in

403
00:22:00,406 --> 00:22:02,886
sleep depravation for 24
hours, that's standard

404
00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:05,889
for everybody, then
from their MI direct us

405
00:22:05,933 --> 00:22:07,761
that they can go to
general population

406
00:22:07,804 --> 00:22:09,023
or they have to stay
in isolation

407
00:22:09,066 --> 00:22:11,068
or if they are gonna
stay in isolation

408
00:22:11,112 --> 00:22:12,809
if they're gonna be
allowed to sleep

409
00:22:12,853 --> 00:22:14,550
and if they can, then when.

410
00:22:14,594 --> 00:22:15,725
To
weaken the defenses

411
00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:17,945
of detainees,
interrogators ordered

412
00:22:17,988 --> 00:22:20,600
military police to find
ways of keeping

413
00:22:20,643 --> 00:22:22,558
- the prisoners awake.
- You know, you're in that

414
00:22:22,602 --> 00:22:25,431
room not saying anything,
oh well you know

415
00:22:25,474 --> 00:22:26,693
maybe he knows a little bit more

416
00:22:26,736 --> 00:22:30,174
let's let him lose a
little bit more sleep.

417
00:22:30,218 --> 00:22:32,829
Which is the idea of
keeping him like this

418
00:22:32,873 --> 00:22:34,875
so he won't sleep, you'll
stand, cause as soon

419
00:22:34,918 --> 00:22:37,225
as you start to let your body go

420
00:22:37,268 --> 00:22:39,358
all that pressure on your wrists

421
00:22:39,401 --> 00:22:42,317
and your arms, you're gonna
feel that with those cuffs on.

422
00:22:44,232 --> 00:22:46,060
The only time the MPs
would ever help us

423
00:22:46,103 --> 00:22:47,714
do anything would be
to keep them

424
00:22:47,757 --> 00:22:50,369
on a sleep schedule, you
know, they're guaranteed

425
00:22:50,412 --> 00:22:52,936
so much sleep, is that
sleep consistent?

426
00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:55,025
Is it uninterrupted?

427
00:22:55,069 --> 00:22:56,157
You know, there's
fifteen minutes here

428
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,072
fifteen minutes there,
who knows.

429
00:22:58,115 --> 00:23:01,467
That's how it was
proposed to us.

430
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:04,644
There'd be a board
when you walk

431
00:23:04,687 --> 00:23:07,255
in the room on this wall,
you might see

432
00:23:07,298 --> 00:23:10,345
an arrow going up to the ceiling

433
00:23:10,389 --> 00:23:13,827
and it would be
maybe a one by it

434
00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:15,872
so that'd be an hour
up, he's gotta stand up

435
00:23:15,916 --> 00:23:18,919
for one hour, and then
you may see a two

436
00:23:18,962 --> 00:23:21,356
with an arrow pointing down,
that means

437
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,053
he can sit down for two hours.

438
00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:25,969
The prisoners
were kept in these big pens

439
00:23:26,013 --> 00:23:28,494
downstairs and their
numbers would be

440
00:23:28,537 --> 00:23:31,105
scribbled on the door
of the airlock

441
00:23:31,148 --> 00:23:32,411
which was the little passageway

442
00:23:32,454 --> 00:23:34,151
that they were taken out of when

443
00:23:34,195 --> 00:23:37,894
they were brought up to the
isolation cells upstairs.

444
00:23:37,938 --> 00:23:39,809
Detainees were
actually chained

445
00:23:39,853 --> 00:23:41,681
with their hands
above their heads

446
00:23:41,724 --> 00:23:44,466
in these airlocks,
his number 421

447
00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:46,468
was something that I
could see often

448
00:23:46,512 --> 00:23:47,600
because his back was towards me

449
00:23:47,643 --> 00:23:48,949
in the airlock and the numbers

450
00:23:48,992 --> 00:23:50,690
were written on the backs
of the detainees

451
00:23:50,733 --> 00:23:52,822
in black marker and
we all had that

452
00:23:52,866 --> 00:23:54,084
as well as on the front.

453
00:23:54,128 --> 00:23:55,608
What was your number?

454
00:23:55,651 --> 00:23:59,873
My number in Bagram was
180 but later it became 558.

455
00:24:01,962 --> 00:24:03,311
Thank you, it's great
to be with ya

456
00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:06,009
it's good to be here in
Bagram of course.

457
00:24:06,053 --> 00:24:07,794
I'm sure,
any high ranking officer

458
00:24:07,837 --> 00:24:10,492
who toured would see
the shackles.

459
00:24:10,536 --> 00:24:12,538
Because you're gonna
tour to look.

460
00:24:12,581 --> 00:24:14,278
You know, they're
curious just like

461
00:24:14,322 --> 00:24:15,758
everybody else is.

462
00:24:15,802 --> 00:24:17,978
There are
always officers coming

463
00:24:18,021 --> 00:24:20,241
and going through the facility.

464
00:24:20,284 --> 00:24:22,243
We kinda joked about it as being

465
00:24:22,286 --> 00:24:23,853
the greatest show on Earth,
everyone

466
00:24:23,897 --> 00:24:25,942
wanted to come and look at
the terrorists.

467
00:24:25,986 --> 00:24:29,903
Mr. Rumsfeld's office
called our office

468
00:24:29,946 --> 00:24:32,688
frequently, very high commanders

469
00:24:32,732 --> 00:24:34,473
would wanna be kept up to date

470
00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:36,910
on a daily basis on
certain prisoners there.

471
00:24:38,041 --> 00:24:40,000
The Brass knew, they
saw em shackled

472
00:24:40,043 --> 00:24:42,481
they saw em hooded and
they said right on

473
00:24:42,524 --> 00:24:43,524
y'all are doing a great job.

474
00:24:44,831 --> 00:24:47,181
When the
Red Cross toured Bagram

475
00:24:47,224 --> 00:24:49,749
the sleep deprivation
chart was erased

476
00:24:49,792 --> 00:24:51,577
and the prisoners
were unshackled.

477
00:24:52,534 --> 00:24:53,927
Traditional military procedure

478
00:24:53,970 --> 00:24:56,407
did not allow you to
shackle somebody

479
00:24:56,451 --> 00:24:58,975
to a fixed object, certainly not

480
00:24:59,019 --> 00:25:01,848
chaining their arms overhead.

481
00:25:01,891 --> 00:25:04,938
Initially they were
handcuffing people

482
00:25:04,981 --> 00:25:08,376
into the airlock of the
cells for punishment

483
00:25:08,419 --> 00:25:10,160
and that was to be
strictly limited

484
00:25:10,204 --> 00:25:13,773
15 minutes, half an hour,
but it quickly evolved

485
00:25:13,816 --> 00:25:17,559
and when you walked in
there, they just had

486
00:25:17,603 --> 00:25:20,606
a pair of long
handcuffs dangling

487
00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:23,217
from the wire mesh
ceiling of the cell

488
00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:25,654
ready for whoever came in.

489
00:25:41,365 --> 00:25:43,759
The Army
coroner who examined Dilawar

490
00:25:43,803 --> 00:25:47,023
discovered massive tissue
damage in his legs.

491
00:25:47,067 --> 00:25:50,461
She later testified that
his legs had been pulpified.

492
00:25:52,638 --> 00:25:55,554
But what could have caused
that kind of damage?

493
00:25:55,597 --> 00:25:57,556
This is not
a hotel, this is a not

494
00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:00,733
a place for them to get
fat, and lazy and happy.

495
00:26:01,995 --> 00:26:03,692
In a video
tape that surfaced

496
00:26:03,736 --> 00:26:06,260
as part of the homicide
investigation,

497
00:26:06,303 --> 00:26:08,784
Colonel David Hayden, a
top Army lawyer

498
00:26:08,828 --> 00:26:11,570
for US forces in
Afghanistan described

499
00:26:11,613 --> 00:26:15,138
a Policy of shackling
and striking detainees.

500
00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:17,619
There was an approved
technique for the MPs

501
00:26:17,663 --> 00:26:19,360
when somebody was a
difficult prisoner

502
00:26:19,403 --> 00:26:21,405
that you could hit em on
the legs, it was

503
00:26:21,449 --> 00:26:24,757
supposedly not considered
not a lethal blow.

504
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,281
I didn't actually hear
a higher up say

505
00:26:27,324 --> 00:26:29,152
go and kick em in the leg,
if they do this

506
00:26:29,196 --> 00:26:31,372
or do that, the higher ups said,

507
00:26:31,415 --> 00:26:34,375
if, you know, in order
to get control of em

508
00:26:34,418 --> 00:26:36,595
that's an option what
you can use.

509
00:26:36,638 --> 00:26:39,032
It's just your knee
going into the side

510
00:26:39,075 --> 00:26:41,774
of their thigh, bout midway up

511
00:26:41,817 --> 00:26:44,646
supposed to be a pressure
point right there

512
00:26:44,690 --> 00:26:47,562
and it controls em really easy.

513
00:26:48,737 --> 00:26:50,086
Over two ays,
everybody's hitting you

514
00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:53,829
in the legs, it can cause
some severe problems.

515
00:26:53,873 --> 00:26:55,701
Throughout the
investigation and even

516
00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:59,052
in the trials, a lot
of the guards

517
00:26:59,095 --> 00:27:00,880
and interrogators
described Dilawar

518
00:27:00,923 --> 00:27:05,319
as a very combative detainee,
as a tough character

519
00:27:05,362 --> 00:27:08,148
and that's just never
been reconciled

520
00:27:08,191 --> 00:27:11,107
with all the other evidence that

521
00:27:11,151 --> 00:27:12,587
there was about this
guy who weighed

522
00:27:12,631 --> 00:27:14,763
122 pounds when he died.

523
00:27:16,373 --> 00:27:17,592
The men who had been passengers

524
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,725
in Dilawar's taxi told us later

525
00:27:19,768 --> 00:27:22,031
that he had just been
absolutely terrified

526
00:27:22,075 --> 00:27:23,772
at Bagram, that they heard him

527
00:27:23,816 --> 00:27:25,992
through the walls of the
isolation cells

528
00:27:26,035 --> 00:27:28,864
screaming for his
mother and father.

529
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,259
He'd been in a very

530
00:27:32,302 --> 00:27:34,783
uncomfortable position
muttering things

531
00:27:34,827 --> 00:27:37,090
sometimes praying,
sometimes asking for help

532
00:27:37,133 --> 00:27:39,048
or seemingly asking for help,

533
00:27:39,092 --> 00:27:41,485
because I couldn't
understand his language.

534
00:27:42,661 --> 00:27:43,879
A number
of witnesses

535
00:27:43,923 --> 00:27:46,055
remember the night
before Dilawar died.

536
00:27:47,317 --> 00:27:48,710
Just that
one night, he got kicked

537
00:27:48,754 --> 00:27:50,886
in the leg maybe like 10 times.

538
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:52,322
Some of the soldiers
said they started

539
00:27:52,366 --> 00:27:53,715
using the knee
strikes essentially

540
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:55,891
to shut em up because
he was yelling

541
00:27:55,935 --> 00:27:58,502
- and screaming.
- The damage that was done

542
00:27:58,546 --> 00:28:01,592
was done from multiple
strikes and a lot

543
00:28:01,636 --> 00:28:03,464
of that could have been avoided

544
00:28:03,507 --> 00:28:05,379
had you known the
person before you

545
00:28:05,422 --> 00:28:08,164
had fought with them and
used that exact technique.

546
00:28:10,514 --> 00:28:12,212
When they
eventually came to take him

547
00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:14,214
to an isolation cell, I believe

548
00:28:14,257 --> 00:28:16,651
his body had become almost limp.

549
00:28:16,695 --> 00:28:18,958
One of the reasons why
they began punching him

550
00:28:19,001 --> 00:28:22,265
was that they felt he was
putting it on.

551
00:28:22,309 --> 00:28:24,615
He was in the airlock,
standing there

552
00:28:24,659 --> 00:28:27,357
with a hood over his head,
he had

553
00:28:27,401 --> 00:28:31,797
his hands tied above his
head and he was moaning.

554
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,234
He just started to fight,
right there

555
00:28:34,277 --> 00:28:36,018
in the airlock and
the airlock has

556
00:28:36,062 --> 00:28:38,586
a front gate and a back
gate but both

557
00:28:38,629 --> 00:28:41,676
the sides are concertina wire,
neither

558
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,112
of us officers wanted to get in

559
00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:46,507
to the concertina wire,
so we pulled him out

560
00:28:46,550 --> 00:28:48,639
of the airlock and put
him on the floor

561
00:28:48,683 --> 00:28:50,729
and put him into restraints.

562
00:28:50,772 --> 00:28:52,078
What
kind of force

563
00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:53,775
did you have to use in
order to subdue him?

564
00:28:53,819 --> 00:28:55,516
Physical force, he was struck.

565
00:28:56,952 --> 00:28:58,911
There's like four
MPs on this guy

566
00:28:58,954 --> 00:29:02,610
and one of the MPs just
kept giving him

567
00:29:02,653 --> 00:29:06,266
kidney shots, the other
two, they'd slammed

568
00:29:06,309 --> 00:29:08,834
him to the ground and
then the fourth one

569
00:29:08,877 --> 00:29:13,621
jumped on his back, he got
a big gash on his nose.

570
00:29:14,665 --> 00:29:16,624
There was no
reason to hit him,

571
00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:18,321
let's remember he's shackled.

572
00:29:18,365 --> 00:29:20,584
Even when the control
was an issue,

573
00:29:20,628 --> 00:29:22,499
it became well I'm just
gonna do this

574
00:29:22,543 --> 00:29:24,545
to get mine in, and
that's probably

575
00:29:24,588 --> 00:29:27,156
why they got in trouble,
because you really

576
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,333
couldn't justify kicking the guy

577
00:29:30,377 --> 00:29:32,335
that much if he was
just chained up.

578
00:29:34,163 --> 00:29:35,556
Dilawar
was taken to

579
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:38,646
an isolation cell, where
the knee strikes continued.

580
00:29:40,169 --> 00:29:42,737
In her statement at
trial, the Army coroner

581
00:29:42,781 --> 00:29:44,695
said his lower limbs looked like

582
00:29:44,739 --> 00:29:46,480
they had been run over by a bus.

583
00:29:47,394 --> 00:29:49,048
Had he lived, it would have been

584
00:29:49,091 --> 00:29:52,703
necessary to amputate his legs.

585
00:29:52,747 --> 00:29:54,270
Then it kinda raised
the question of

586
00:29:54,314 --> 00:29:56,446
this is what we did to him,
it's not

587
00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:57,665
just this is what I did to him

588
00:29:57,708 --> 00:29:59,928
or this is what
Cammack did to him

589
00:29:59,972 --> 00:30:02,278
or Morden or anybody,
it just this is

590
00:30:02,322 --> 00:30:03,322
what we've done.

591
00:30:05,891 --> 00:30:07,762
It's almost
hard to fathom now,

592
00:30:07,806 --> 00:30:10,156
you had soldiers like
Willie Brand

593
00:30:10,199 --> 00:30:12,158
who seems like this very gentle

594
00:30:12,201 --> 00:30:15,117
kind of soft spoken guy,
but who testified

595
00:30:15,161 --> 00:30:17,598
that he struck Dilawar
so many times

596
00:30:17,641 --> 00:30:19,556
in the leg that his
knee got tired

597
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,471
and he had to switch to
the other one.

598
00:30:22,951 --> 00:30:27,869
Sometimes I feel that
I should have gone with

599
00:30:27,913 --> 00:30:32,874
my own morality more then
what was common.

600
00:30:37,226 --> 00:30:38,532
One MP
testified that

601
00:30:38,575 --> 00:30:40,186
the strikes became an amusement,

602
00:30:40,229 --> 00:30:42,362
inflicted on Dilawar
just to hear

603
00:30:42,405 --> 00:30:45,191
- him scream Allah.
- Some would say well hey

604
00:30:45,234 --> 00:30:46,409
you should have stopped this,
you should

605
00:30:46,453 --> 00:30:48,585
have stopped that, when
you saw he was

606
00:30:48,629 --> 00:30:50,892
injured or saw he was
being kicked on his knees,

607
00:30:50,936 --> 00:30:52,024
why didn't you do something?

608
00:30:52,067 --> 00:30:54,548
That'd be a good question,
my answer

609
00:30:54,591 --> 00:30:56,028
would be well, it was
us against them

610
00:30:56,071 --> 00:30:58,465
I was over there, I
didn't wanna appear

611
00:30:58,508 --> 00:31:01,207
to be going against my
fellow soldiers.

612
00:31:02,904 --> 00:31:06,038
Which is that wrong, you
could sit here

613
00:31:06,081 --> 00:31:07,735
and say that was dead wrong,

614
00:31:07,778 --> 00:31:09,128
go over there and say that.

615
00:31:13,654 --> 00:31:15,134
No one
ever investigated

616
00:31:15,177 --> 00:31:16,700
who set the rules at Bagram.

617
00:31:18,093 --> 00:31:20,922
Investigators never
asked Captain Wood

618
00:31:20,966 --> 00:31:23,185
what senior officers
had given orders

619
00:31:23,229 --> 00:31:25,100
to treat detainees in
ways that were

620
00:31:25,144 --> 00:31:27,668
forbidden according to
the Army Field Manual.

621
00:31:29,148 --> 00:31:31,237
MP Captain Beiring was the only

622
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,847
officer prosecuted in the case.

623
00:31:34,109 --> 00:31:36,895
His dereliction of duty
charge was dismissed

624
00:31:36,938 --> 00:31:38,940
when the judge
determined that no one

625
00:31:38,984 --> 00:31:41,900
had made clear what
Captain Beiring's duty was.

626
00:31:43,510 --> 00:31:45,947
In spite of repeated
requests for proper training

627
00:31:45,991 --> 00:31:48,645
rules of engagement
for his soldiers

628
00:31:48,689 --> 00:31:51,170
his superiors gave him neither.

629
00:31:51,213 --> 00:31:52,736
We were all worried
about not having

630
00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:54,869
that written guidelines,
by they kept

631
00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:56,566
reassuring us that
it was coming.

632
00:31:58,655 --> 00:32:00,135
We knew exactly why we
weren't getting

633
00:32:00,179 --> 00:32:02,311
clear guidance, just in
case something

634
00:32:02,355 --> 00:32:03,355
like this happened.

635
00:32:04,444 --> 00:32:07,012
If I had to do it
again, I'd probably say no

636
00:32:07,055 --> 00:32:10,102
I just, I'd be like I'm
not doing anything

637
00:32:10,145 --> 00:32:12,017
until I see
something in writing.

638
00:32:14,715 --> 00:32:15,934
And
do you think,

639
00:32:15,977 --> 00:32:18,066
looking back, do you
think you were misled?

640
00:32:20,677 --> 00:32:22,288
I think we all were.

641
00:32:52,013 --> 00:32:54,624
A week after
September 11th

642
00:32:54,668 --> 00:32:57,062
Vice President Dick
Cheney appeared

643
00:32:57,105 --> 00:32:59,934
on Meet the Press to
describe how

644
00:32:59,978 --> 00:33:03,285
interrogation policies
were about to change.

645
00:33:06,158 --> 00:33:08,899
I have to work the
dark side, if you will

646
00:33:08,943 --> 00:33:10,684
spend time in the shadows,
in the

647
00:33:10,727 --> 00:33:13,165
intelligence world,
a lot of what

648
00:33:13,208 --> 00:33:15,428
needs to be done here will
have to be done

649
00:33:15,471 --> 00:33:17,212
quietly without any discussion,

650
00:33:17,256 --> 00:33:18,779
using sources and methods that

651
00:33:18,822 --> 00:33:21,303
are available to our
intelligence agencies

652
00:33:21,347 --> 00:33:24,219
if we're gonna be
successful, that's the world

653
00:33:24,263 --> 00:33:27,048
these folks operate in
and so it's gonna

654
00:33:27,092 --> 00:33:30,008
be vital for us to use
any means at our disposal,

655
00:33:30,051 --> 00:33:31,922
basically, to achieve
our objective.

656
00:33:33,402 --> 00:33:35,100
It's very clear that it starts

657
00:33:35,143 --> 00:33:37,450
in the office of Vice
President Cheney

658
00:33:37,493 --> 00:33:41,758
he had a very strong view
that we were not

659
00:33:41,802 --> 00:33:44,935
as aggressive in
dealing with people

660
00:33:44,979 --> 00:33:47,634
in interrogations as
we could or should be.

661
00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:53,074
Taking the gloves off,
being rough with detainees.

662
00:33:53,118 --> 00:33:54,206
If Dick Cheney was

663
00:33:54,249 --> 00:33:56,817
the primary architect
of a new policy,

664
00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:59,515
John Yoo was the
chief draftsman.

665
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:01,474
He wrote guiding
opinions which argued

666
00:34:01,517 --> 00:34:05,739
for a flexibly approach to
treating suspected terrorists.

667
00:34:05,782 --> 00:34:07,654
United States used to
treat terrorism

668
00:34:07,697 --> 00:34:09,786
as a criminal justice problem.

669
00:34:09,830 --> 00:34:11,788
The September 11th
attacks showed that

670
00:34:11,832 --> 00:34:13,312
the struggle with
Al-Qaeda had moved

671
00:34:13,355 --> 00:34:16,532
into warfare, I think
when a sworn enemy

672
00:34:16,576 --> 00:34:18,099
for political purposes can kill

673
00:34:18,143 --> 00:34:20,275
three thousand Americans,
cause billions

674
00:34:20,319 --> 00:34:23,278
of dollars of damage and
try to eliminate

675
00:34:23,322 --> 00:34:25,280
the leaders of the
American Government

676
00:34:25,324 --> 00:34:27,413
that sounds like war
to most people,

677
00:34:27,456 --> 00:34:29,545
it doesn't sound like crime.

678
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:30,720
President
Bush declared

679
00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:33,941
a war on terror, but he
raised questions

680
00:34:33,984 --> 00:34:35,856
about whether
suspected terrorists

681
00:34:35,899 --> 00:34:38,511
should be protected by
the laws of war.

682
00:34:38,554 --> 00:34:40,034
The Geneva Conventions.

683
00:34:42,471 --> 00:34:44,125
Atrocities that shocked
the conscience

684
00:34:44,169 --> 00:34:45,909
of the world gave rise
to the modern

685
00:34:45,953 --> 00:34:48,738
Geneva Conventions,
international treaties

686
00:34:48,782 --> 00:34:50,653
meant to provide
fundamental protections

687
00:34:50,697 --> 00:34:53,830
for every human being
captured in war time.

688
00:34:56,398 --> 00:34:59,140
In effect for over 50
years, Geneva offered

689
00:34:59,184 --> 00:35:02,100
legal protections and
prohibited interrogators

690
00:35:02,143 --> 00:35:05,364
from using torture, murder,
or even

691
00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:07,279
humiliating and
degrading treatment.

692
00:35:08,932 --> 00:35:11,718
After 9/11, John Yoo
worked closely

693
00:35:11,761 --> 00:35:14,721
with Dick Cheney's office
and Alberto Gonzales

694
00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:16,897
the Counsel to the President.

695
00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:19,073
They wrote a series of
memos arguing

696
00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:21,641
that the Geneva
Conventions did not apply

697
00:35:21,684 --> 00:35:24,644
to suspected terrorists
and they gave

698
00:35:24,687 --> 00:35:28,038
legal cover for the CIA
and Special Forces

699
00:35:28,082 --> 00:35:30,519
to embark on a secret program

700
00:35:30,563 --> 00:35:34,393
of previously forbidden
interrogation techniques.

701
00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:36,308
More than 3000
suspected terrorists

702
00:35:36,351 --> 00:35:38,527
have been arrested in
many countries

703
00:35:38,571 --> 00:35:40,790
many others have met a
different fate

704
00:35:40,834 --> 00:35:43,793
let's put it this way,
they're no longer

705
00:35:43,837 --> 00:35:45,230
a problem to the United States

706
00:35:45,273 --> 00:35:46,970
and our friends and allies.

707
00:35:52,454 --> 00:35:53,673
The problem
for the President,

708
00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:55,892
Gonzalez warned, was that some

709
00:35:55,936 --> 00:35:57,807
of the new
interrogation techniques

710
00:35:57,851 --> 00:36:01,289
were banned under US
and international law.

711
00:36:01,333 --> 00:36:02,986
One of the points
that he makes

712
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:05,685
is that we don't want
the Geneva Conventions

713
00:36:05,728 --> 00:36:10,385
to apply because if they do,
these things

714
00:36:10,429 --> 00:36:13,823
- can be war crimes.
- What's well known is

715
00:36:13,867 --> 00:36:16,696
the principle of command
responsibility.

716
00:36:16,739 --> 00:36:18,611
This was established
in the Nuremberg trials

717
00:36:18,654 --> 00:36:20,526
after World War II and
it established

718
00:36:20,569 --> 00:36:23,093
the principle of
international criminal law

719
00:36:23,137 --> 00:36:25,574
that individuals who
order illegal treatment

720
00:36:25,618 --> 00:36:27,402
will be held accountable
for the illegal

721
00:36:27,446 --> 00:36:29,361
treatment even if they're
not immediately

722
00:36:29,404 --> 00:36:32,146
applying the kind of
abusive treatment.

723
00:36:34,104 --> 00:36:35,410
To be
certain that Americans

724
00:36:35,454 --> 00:36:37,064
interrogating
prisoners would not

725
00:36:37,107 --> 00:36:40,154
be accused of torture,
John Yoo co-authored

726
00:36:40,198 --> 00:36:43,984
a memo that would clarify
the meaning of the term.

727
00:36:44,027 --> 00:36:45,942
The only prohibited
acts would be

728
00:36:45,986 --> 00:36:48,206
extreme acts which
are equivalent

729
00:36:48,249 --> 00:36:52,035
to serious physical injury,
such as organ failure

730
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:55,561
impairment of bodily
functions or even death.

731
00:36:55,604 --> 00:36:58,999
That's an illegal memo, that's
the so-called torture memo.

732
00:36:59,042 --> 00:37:02,263
That was an arguable
interpretation

733
00:37:02,307 --> 00:37:04,961
of the law, I'm sure we
had discussions about it

734
00:37:05,005 --> 00:37:07,137
and ultimately it was accepted,

735
00:37:07,181 --> 00:37:09,966
because it represent,
that was the ultimate

736
00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:12,969
decision and position of
the Office of Legal Counsel.

737
00:37:15,058 --> 00:37:17,974
The Office of Legal
Counsel memorandum

738
00:37:18,018 --> 00:37:21,195
was unbounded, meaning
nowhere did it state

739
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,806
that the application of
cruel and inhuman

740
00:37:23,850 --> 00:37:25,721
and degrading treatment
was prohibited

741
00:37:25,765 --> 00:37:27,375
and at one point, I
asked John Yoo

742
00:37:27,419 --> 00:37:29,464
can the President
authorize torture

743
00:37:29,508 --> 00:37:31,945
and his response was yes.

744
00:37:33,294 --> 00:37:34,904
I think the lawyers
job is to tell

745
00:37:34,948 --> 00:37:37,124
people what laws do
or do not apply

746
00:37:37,167 --> 00:37:38,865
so that they know what
space they have

747
00:37:38,908 --> 00:37:40,475
to make the policy decision.

748
00:37:42,695 --> 00:37:44,218
If the
President deems that

749
00:37:44,262 --> 00:37:46,786
he's got to torture somebody,
including

750
00:37:46,829 --> 00:37:50,006
by crushing the testicles
of the person's child,

751
00:37:50,050 --> 00:37:52,182
there is no law that
can stop that?

752
00:37:52,226 --> 00:37:54,228
That's what you wrote
in the August 2002 memo.

753
00:37:54,272 --> 00:37:55,751
I think it depends
on why the President

754
00:37:55,795 --> 00:37:57,666
thinks he needs to do that.

755
00:37:58,537 --> 00:38:00,321
Military
lawyers were outraged

756
00:38:00,365 --> 00:38:02,976
by the implications of
John Yoo's memo.

757
00:38:03,019 --> 00:38:04,978
My first
involvement in this came

758
00:38:05,021 --> 00:38:07,676
when I was visited by a
group of senior

759
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,983
JAG officers, more than
a year before

760
00:38:10,026 --> 00:38:12,072
the first story about the
Abu Ghraib broke

761
00:38:12,115 --> 00:38:14,553
who were very troubled
about what was going on

762
00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:16,337
and the focus of their concern

763
00:38:16,381 --> 00:38:19,558
was failing in the
responsibilities

764
00:38:19,601 --> 00:38:21,255
that the military
leadership had,

765
00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:23,257
to soldiers in the field,
that was the

766
00:38:23,301 --> 00:38:25,781
responsibility to provide fair,

767
00:38:25,825 --> 00:38:27,870
clear guidance to them as to how

768
00:38:27,914 --> 00:38:30,743
to behave in these
difficult circumstances

769
00:38:30,786 --> 00:38:34,355
and what they saw was
an intentional

770
00:38:34,399 --> 00:38:37,576
decision taken at the
height of the Pentagon

771
00:38:37,619 --> 00:38:42,102
to put out a fog of
ambiguity coupled with

772
00:38:42,145 --> 00:38:44,713
great pressure to bring results

773
00:38:44,757 --> 00:38:49,588
to be prepared to be
violent with the detainees

774
00:38:49,631 --> 00:38:53,679
but you know, this
violence with the detainees

775
00:38:53,722 --> 00:38:54,941
is a criminal act.

776
00:38:56,769 --> 00:39:00,163
They may be Al-Qaeda,
they may be Taliban

777
00:39:00,207 --> 00:39:02,122
they may be the worst
people in the world

778
00:39:02,165 --> 00:39:04,254
and I'm sure that
some of them are

779
00:39:04,298 --> 00:39:07,214
but there are
certain basic rules

780
00:39:07,257 --> 00:39:09,042
and international agreements
that the United states

781
00:39:09,085 --> 00:39:12,045
has agreed to, that
we will observe

782
00:39:12,088 --> 00:39:13,612
you go ahead and please respond,

783
00:39:13,655 --> 00:39:15,962
- you wanted to.
- Very quickly, let me clarify

784
00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:18,878
the President's policy,
"as a matter of policy

785
00:39:18,921 --> 00:39:20,096
"the United States Armed Forces

786
00:39:20,140 --> 00:39:22,664
"shall continue to
treat detainees humanely

787
00:39:22,708 --> 00:39:24,927
"and to the extent
appropriate and consistent

788
00:39:24,971 --> 00:39:27,016
"with military
necessity in a manner

789
00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:29,802
"consistent with the
principles of Geneva."

790
00:39:29,845 --> 00:39:32,413
That is a legalistic
statement and one

791
00:39:32,457 --> 00:39:34,067
that is written with loopholes

792
00:39:34,110 --> 00:39:35,895
and it's clear to me,
the interrogators

793
00:39:35,938 --> 00:39:39,507
did not understand that
quote "humane treatment"

794
00:39:39,551 --> 00:39:42,031
might be in the eye of
the beholder.

795
00:39:43,772 --> 00:39:45,513
In the field
in Afghanistan,

796
00:39:45,557 --> 00:39:47,297
there was a great
deal of confusion

797
00:39:47,341 --> 00:39:49,996
about exactly what
the rules were.

798
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:52,128
They told us when
dealing with the PUCs

799
00:39:52,172 --> 00:39:55,088
as they called them, the
persons under US custody

800
00:39:55,131 --> 00:39:57,699
they don't fall under
Geneva Conventions,

801
00:39:57,743 --> 00:39:59,571
basically, the only thing
that we weren't allowed

802
00:39:59,614 --> 00:40:01,181
to do is beat em up.

803
00:40:02,269 --> 00:40:03,488
Person
under control,

804
00:40:03,531 --> 00:40:05,794
person under custody,
something like that,

805
00:40:05,838 --> 00:40:06,882
you know, they call
them anything

806
00:40:06,926 --> 00:40:08,275
to dehumanize em, so
that you don't

807
00:40:08,318 --> 00:40:10,146
look at them as people.

808
00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:11,539
I don't remember
hearing anything

809
00:40:11,583 --> 00:40:16,022
about Geneva Convention,
'course I'm familiar

810
00:40:16,065 --> 00:40:18,241
with it, but they
didn't go over that

811
00:40:18,285 --> 00:40:20,983
in any kind of detail.

812
00:40:21,027 --> 00:40:22,463
I didn't know what
the Field Manual

813
00:40:22,507 --> 00:40:23,769
for interrogation, I didn't know

814
00:40:23,812 --> 00:40:25,858
the proper nomenclature
for it, I'd seen it,

815
00:40:25,901 --> 00:40:27,337
there was a copy of
it lying around

816
00:40:27,381 --> 00:40:30,253
I'm sure somewhere,
and if I had chosen to,

817
00:40:30,297 --> 00:40:32,125
I could have picked it
up and read it

818
00:40:32,168 --> 00:40:34,475
but I was working 16 hour days

819
00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:36,564
to sit down and read
a field manual

820
00:40:36,608 --> 00:40:39,175
was not top of my
priorities over there.

821
00:40:40,699 --> 00:40:43,571
It is a mean, nasty,
dangerous, dirty

822
00:40:43,615 --> 00:40:46,052
business out there and we
have to operate

823
00:40:46,095 --> 00:40:48,707
in that arena, I'm
convinced we can do it

824
00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:50,143
we can do it
successfully but we need

825
00:40:50,186 --> 00:40:52,058
to make certain that we have not

826
00:40:52,101 --> 00:40:53,886
tied the hands, if you will,
of our

827
00:40:53,929 --> 00:40:57,280
intelligence
communities in terms of

828
00:40:57,324 --> 00:40:58,325
accomplishing their mission.

829
00:40:58,368 --> 00:40:59,761
These terrorists
play by a whole

830
00:40:59,805 --> 00:41:02,242
set of different rules,
it's gonna force us

831
00:41:02,285 --> 00:41:04,810
in your words, to get
mean, dirty and nasty

832
00:41:04,853 --> 00:41:06,812
- in order to take em on?
- Right.

833
00:41:17,562 --> 00:41:19,041
Guided by
a legal opinion

834
00:41:19,085 --> 00:41:21,609
from John Yoo, the Bush
Administration

835
00:41:21,653 --> 00:41:24,133
began shipping some
high-value detainees

836
00:41:24,177 --> 00:41:28,181
to the US Naval Base,
in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

837
00:41:30,488 --> 00:41:32,925
Initially I thought good,
safe place.

838
00:41:32,968 --> 00:41:35,580
Put them there, barbed
wire all over.

839
00:41:35,623 --> 00:41:38,278
Then it became apparent
that the reason

840
00:41:38,321 --> 00:41:40,585
we were doing it was
because we were

841
00:41:40,628 --> 00:41:43,544
going to argue that
there's no law.

842
00:41:43,588 --> 00:41:47,156
A Cuban law didn't apply,
US law didn't apply

843
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,159
well that was a big step
down the slippery slope.

844
00:41:50,203 --> 00:41:51,465
I think what the policy makers

845
00:41:51,509 --> 00:41:53,554
were trying to do was
to try to find a place

846
00:41:53,598 --> 00:41:55,904
that was physically as close to

847
00:41:55,948 --> 00:41:57,863
the unIted States so it
could be well protected

848
00:41:57,906 --> 00:41:59,691
but still would benefit
from the rule

849
00:41:59,734 --> 00:42:01,606
that the United states military,

850
00:42:01,649 --> 00:42:04,217
is one who has ultimate
say and control

851
00:42:04,260 --> 00:42:07,133
over enemy prisoners who are
held outside the country.

852
00:42:10,658 --> 00:42:13,095
One by one, the
terrorists are learning

853
00:42:13,139 --> 00:42:15,663
the meaning of American justice.

854
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,725
In December 2001,
a man named

855
00:42:33,768 --> 00:42:35,509
Mohammed al-Qahtani was swept up

856
00:42:35,553 --> 00:42:38,643
in Afghanistan and sent
to Guantanamo.

857
00:42:40,253 --> 00:42:42,211
After eight months in detention

858
00:42:42,255 --> 00:42:43,909
the Army discovered that he may

859
00:42:43,952 --> 00:42:45,998
have trained to be the
20th hijacker.

860
00:42:47,086 --> 00:42:49,262
Suddenly, Qahtani
became the most

861
00:42:49,305 --> 00:42:51,786
important detainee
in Guantanamo.

862
00:42:55,616 --> 00:42:57,270
Here we had a man
who was supposed

863
00:42:57,313 --> 00:42:59,228
to have been on that
plane that was flown

864
00:42:59,272 --> 00:43:01,317
into the
Pennsylvania countryside

865
00:43:01,361 --> 00:43:04,146
so I think there was a
sense of urgency

866
00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:06,192
to find out what this
guy knew in order

867
00:43:06,235 --> 00:43:08,803
to be able to prevent any
future attacks.

868
00:43:08,847 --> 00:43:10,936
He successfully
resisted standard

869
00:43:10,979 --> 00:43:12,851
interrogation
techniques at Guantanamo

870
00:43:12,894 --> 00:43:15,288
for eight months and he
is the genesis

871
00:43:15,331 --> 00:43:17,203
for the request by the
joint task force

872
00:43:17,246 --> 00:43:20,249
at Guantanamo for
more techniques

873
00:43:20,293 --> 00:43:23,035
that might be able to get
past his resistance training.

874
00:43:24,558 --> 00:43:26,865
In September 2002,

875
00:43:26,908 --> 00:43:29,345
John Yoo and Alberto
Gonzalez traveled

876
00:43:29,389 --> 00:43:33,654
to Guantanamo, soon
after their visit,

877
00:43:33,698 --> 00:43:36,875
and just before Dilawar's
arrival at Bagram,

878
00:43:36,918 --> 00:43:38,790
Donald Rumsfeld
personally approved

879
00:43:38,833 --> 00:43:41,140
a new menu of
psychological interrogation

880
00:43:41,183 --> 00:43:44,360
techniques for use on
Mohammed al-Qahtani.

881
00:43:46,058 --> 00:43:48,582
Exactly how the techniques
would be applied

882
00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:51,541
was often left to
the imagination

883
00:43:51,585 --> 00:43:52,717
of the interrogators.

884
00:44:02,944 --> 00:44:06,034
His interrogations are
well-documented

885
00:44:06,078 --> 00:44:08,776
in a log and from
November 2002 in to

886
00:44:08,820 --> 00:44:12,562
early January 2003, he was
subjected to this regime.

887
00:44:14,347 --> 00:44:17,567
It involved very severe
sleep deprivation.

888
00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:22,834
He was only permitted to sleep

889
00:44:22,877 --> 00:44:25,706
four hours a day from seven
o'clock in the morning

890
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:27,055
till 11 o'clock in the morning,

891
00:44:27,099 --> 00:44:29,667
and that lasted for 50
days with one exception.

892
00:44:32,147 --> 00:44:35,629
He was held in severe isolation
and sensory deprivation.

893
00:44:44,769 --> 00:44:45,987
There are a number of instances

894
00:44:46,031 --> 00:44:47,685
in the log where you'll
see the phrase

895
00:44:47,728 --> 00:44:49,687
invasion of space by a female,

896
00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:51,253
and that was actually
an interrogation

897
00:44:51,297 --> 00:44:53,691
tactic designed to
break his faith.

898
00:44:55,562 --> 00:44:56,998
An interrogator
approached detainee

899
00:44:57,042 --> 00:44:58,696
from behind, rubbed his back,
whispered

900
00:44:58,739 --> 00:45:00,567
in his ear and ran
fingers through his hair

901
00:45:00,610 --> 00:45:03,657
that was authorized under
the futility technique.

902
00:45:08,531 --> 00:45:11,012
He was
subjected to what I would call

903
00:45:11,056 --> 00:45:13,406
sexual assault by female
interrogators.

904
00:45:16,714 --> 00:45:18,585
He was forced to wear
women's lingerie

905
00:45:18,628 --> 00:45:21,762
multiple allegations of
homosexuality

906
00:45:21,806 --> 00:45:23,851
and that his comrades
were aware of that

907
00:45:23,895 --> 00:45:26,724
he was forced to dance
with a male interrogator

908
00:45:26,767 --> 00:45:29,683
subject to strip searches
for control measures

909
00:45:29,727 --> 00:45:32,033
not for security, and
he was forced

910
00:45:32,077 --> 00:45:34,209
to perform dog tricks.

911
00:45:34,253 --> 00:45:37,082
All this to lower his
personal sense of worth.

912
00:45:44,002 --> 00:45:47,135
They tried to
categorize it as individual

913
00:45:47,179 --> 00:45:48,615
interrogators pushing
the envelope

914
00:45:48,658 --> 00:45:50,312
or starting to get
quote creative.

915
00:46:06,676 --> 00:46:09,288
# God bless America

916
00:46:09,331 --> 00:46:12,204
# Land that I love

917
00:46:30,570 --> 00:46:33,791
The combination
of his lack of food intake

918
00:46:33,834 --> 00:46:37,142
and forcible hydration
led him at one point

919
00:46:37,185 --> 00:46:38,360
to actually, his
heart slowed down

920
00:46:38,404 --> 00:46:40,014
to 35 beats per minute
and he was rushed

921
00:46:40,058 --> 00:46:43,757
to the hospital to be revived.

922
00:46:53,201 --> 00:46:54,899
Mohammed al-Qahtani
in many ways

923
00:46:54,942 --> 00:46:58,685
that single interrogation,
protected interrogation

924
00:46:58,728 --> 00:47:00,643
contains within it, if you will,

925
00:47:00,687 --> 00:47:03,646
the entire genealogy, the
entire history

926
00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:06,214
of CIA torture over the
last 50 years.

927
00:47:07,389 --> 00:47:10,044
The CIA launched a mind
control project,

928
00:47:10,088 --> 00:47:11,829
a veritable Manhattan
Project of the mind

929
00:47:11,872 --> 00:47:15,310
in the 1950s, in house,
the CIA worked on

930
00:47:15,354 --> 00:47:18,574
exotic techniques, hypnosis,
and then

931
00:47:18,618 --> 00:47:19,924
they worked on sodium penothal

932
00:47:19,967 --> 00:47:21,316
then they worked on
electro shock

933
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,580
and ultimately, they
discovered LSD.

934
00:47:24,624 --> 00:47:26,887
All of that drug stuff,
in house, went nowhere

935
00:47:26,931 --> 00:47:30,499
except to lawsuits, but
what did work

936
00:47:30,543 --> 00:47:33,763
was the CIA outsourced
all of the dull

937
00:47:33,807 --> 00:47:36,897
behavioral research to
the most brilliant

938
00:47:36,941 --> 00:47:38,594
behavioral scientists at the top

939
00:47:38,638 --> 00:47:40,727
universities in the
United States and Canada.

940
00:47:40,770 --> 00:47:42,163
At McGill,
experiments

941
00:47:42,207 --> 00:47:44,644
by famed psychologist Donald O.
Hebb

942
00:47:44,687 --> 00:47:47,255
caught the eye of CIA
researchers.

943
00:47:47,299 --> 00:47:49,301
Doctor Hebb found
that he could

944
00:47:49,344 --> 00:47:53,131
induce a state akin to a
acute psychosis

945
00:47:53,174 --> 00:47:55,481
in 48 hours, all he
did was he had

946
00:47:55,524 --> 00:47:58,223
student volunteers sit in
a very pleasant

947
00:47:58,266 --> 00:48:00,703
air-conditioned cubicle
with goggles,

948
00:48:00,747 --> 00:48:02,618
gloves and ear muffs, actually,
you know

949
00:48:02,662 --> 00:48:03,750
what they looked just like?

950
00:48:03,793 --> 00:48:05,708
The Guantanamo detainees,
if you see

951
00:48:05,752 --> 00:48:07,885
those outfits that the
Guantanamo detainees

952
00:48:07,928 --> 00:48:09,277
have where they have the gloves,

953
00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:10,931
and the googles and
the earmuffs?

954
00:48:10,975 --> 00:48:12,106
Not everything's all
about security,

955
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:14,717
no, no, no, that's
sensory breakdown.

956
00:48:14,761 --> 00:48:17,982
Within a day, there
would be hallucinations

957
00:48:18,025 --> 00:48:19,766
within two days, breakdown.

958
00:48:19,809 --> 00:48:21,942
I began to think
while we were doing

959
00:48:21,986 --> 00:48:25,032
our experiments, it's
possible that something

960
00:48:25,076 --> 00:48:28,557
that involves physical
discomfort or even pain

961
00:48:28,601 --> 00:48:30,733
might be more
tolerable than simply

962
00:48:30,777 --> 00:48:34,172
the deprivation conditions
that we studied.

963
00:48:34,215 --> 00:48:35,695
The CIA was
fascinated by this,

964
00:48:35,738 --> 00:48:37,131
they jumped on it immediately.

965
00:48:37,175 --> 00:48:39,264
I had no idea what a
potentially vicious

966
00:48:39,307 --> 00:48:41,440
weapon this could be.

967
00:48:41,483 --> 00:48:44,312
They identified two
key techniques.

968
00:48:44,356 --> 00:48:46,445
They identified sensory
disorientation

969
00:48:46,488 --> 00:48:48,055
and they identified
self-inflicted pain,

970
00:48:48,099 --> 00:48:50,884
standing for days at a
time while fluid

971
00:48:50,928 --> 00:48:53,669
flowed to the legs and
they put them together

972
00:48:53,713 --> 00:48:56,455
in the Kubark
Counterintelligence

973
00:48:56,498 --> 00:48:58,065
Interrogation manual

974
00:48:58,109 --> 00:49:00,111
and they propagated
around the world

975
00:49:00,154 --> 00:49:02,809
and through the US
intelligence community.

976
00:49:04,376 --> 00:49:06,987
Think about what al-Qahtani
was subjected to, okay?

977
00:49:07,031 --> 00:49:09,381
First of all, he's in dark,
he's in light

978
00:49:09,424 --> 00:49:12,297
he's in cold, he's in
heat, what they're doing

979
00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:14,386
is they're attacking
his universal

980
00:49:14,429 --> 00:49:16,518
sensory receptors, they're
also scrambling

981
00:49:16,562 --> 00:49:18,607
his time, so that's phase one.

982
00:49:19,957 --> 00:49:24,309
In Guantanamo under the
regime of General Miller

983
00:49:24,352 --> 00:49:26,702
he turned Guantanamo
into a veritable

984
00:49:26,746 --> 00:49:28,661
behavioral scientific laboratory

985
00:49:29,792 --> 00:49:31,359
and Donald Rumsfeld gave orders

986
00:49:31,403 --> 00:49:34,058
for techniques beyond
the field manual

987
00:49:34,101 --> 00:49:35,973
and they percolated and
they percolated

988
00:49:36,016 --> 00:49:38,540
in ambiguous way that
allowed people to

989
00:49:39,759 --> 00:49:42,327
do what they thought
needed to be done.

990
00:49:42,370 --> 00:49:45,373
And they explored our
male sensitivity

991
00:49:45,417 --> 00:49:48,376
to gender and sexual
identity, so that's the thing

992
00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:50,944
about being homosexual,
the underwear

993
00:49:50,988 --> 00:49:53,512
on the head, all that
sort of stuff.

994
00:49:53,555 --> 00:49:55,340
People were saying
Arabs really

995
00:49:55,383 --> 00:49:57,907
are very sensitive to
sexual humiliation

996
00:49:57,951 --> 00:49:59,605
well, who the hell
isn't sensitive

997
00:49:59,648 --> 00:50:01,781
to sexual humiliation,
nobody wants

998
00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:03,087
to be stripped down
naked and forced

999
00:50:03,130 --> 00:50:04,784
to masturbate with a hood
over your head.

1000
00:50:04,827 --> 00:50:05,827
It's ridiculous.

1001
00:50:06,916 --> 00:50:08,657
Then they created
behavioral science

1002
00:50:08,701 --> 00:50:10,050
consultation teams
where they had

1003
00:50:10,094 --> 00:50:11,878
military
psychologists integrated

1004
00:50:11,921 --> 00:50:13,662
into the ongoing interrogation

1005
00:50:13,706 --> 00:50:17,014
to discover individual
fears and phobias

1006
00:50:18,319 --> 00:50:20,974
and all of that was
visited on al-Qahtani.

1007
00:50:22,236 --> 00:50:23,846
You are
aware of communications

1008
00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:25,761
between General Miller
and Secretary Rumsfeld

1009
00:50:25,805 --> 00:50:28,808
specifically about this
one prisoner?

1010
00:50:28,851 --> 00:50:31,289
To our knowledge, there
was considerable

1011
00:50:31,332 --> 00:50:33,639
manner of communication
up and down the chain.

1012
00:50:37,686 --> 00:50:39,601
As you know from
General Schmidt's report

1013
00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:41,386
he concluded that
these techniques

1014
00:50:41,429 --> 00:50:44,084
individually did not
constitute torture

1015
00:50:44,128 --> 00:50:46,086
but he said that the
sum of these techniques.

1016
00:50:46,130 --> 00:50:48,219
The cumulative effects
of simultaneous

1017
00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,482
applications of
numerous authorized

1018
00:50:50,525 --> 00:50:52,223
techniques had abusive
and degrading

1019
00:50:52,266 --> 00:50:54,051
impact on the detainee.

1020
00:50:54,094 --> 00:50:56,879
And he recommended that
General Miller be disciplined.

1021
00:50:59,534 --> 00:51:01,928
But he said it did not
constitute torture.

1022
00:51:01,971 --> 00:51:03,625
We made a distinction between

1023
00:51:03,669 --> 00:51:05,975
what torture and
inhuman treatment

1024
00:51:06,019 --> 00:51:07,890
would be given the
general guidelines

1025
00:51:07,934 --> 00:51:10,719
and then what might be
abusive and degrading

1026
00:51:10,763 --> 00:51:12,808
something might be
degrading but not

1027
00:51:12,852 --> 00:51:14,593
necessarily torture
and it may not

1028
00:51:14,636 --> 00:51:17,335
be inhumane, it may
be humiliating

1029
00:51:17,378 --> 00:51:20,033
but it may not be torture,
no torture

1030
00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:22,166
no physical pain, injury,
there was a safe

1031
00:51:22,209 --> 00:51:24,298
secure environment
the entire time.

1032
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:27,171
And that, of course,
is the genius

1033
00:51:27,214 --> 00:51:29,695
of the CIA's
psychological paradigm.

1034
00:51:29,738 --> 00:51:31,305
Psychological torture
is all a matter

1035
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:35,875
of definitions and then
it's a very slippery indeed.

1036
00:51:35,918 --> 00:51:37,224
That sounds remarkably similar

1037
00:51:37,268 --> 00:51:39,835
to what occurred at Abu Ghraib,

1038
00:51:39,879 --> 00:51:42,011
people being led
around in chains

1039
00:51:42,055 --> 00:51:44,101
people being forced to
wear lingerie,

1040
00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:47,800
perhaps a coincidence,
perhaps not.

1041
00:51:50,107 --> 00:51:51,847
If you look at those
Abu Ghraib photographs

1042
00:51:51,891 --> 00:51:53,980
again, it's always the
same techniques.

1043
00:51:54,023 --> 00:51:55,982
First of all, there's the
sexual activity

1044
00:51:56,025 --> 00:51:58,593
with the women's garments
and the masturbation

1045
00:51:58,637 --> 00:52:01,683
and all the rest, that's
the cultural sensitivity.

1046
00:52:01,727 --> 00:52:03,685
They're short shackled,
they're long-shackled

1047
00:52:03,729 --> 00:52:05,470
they're shackled upside down.

1048
00:52:05,513 --> 00:52:07,863
These are stress positions.

1049
00:52:07,907 --> 00:52:10,431
The most famous of all
Abu Ghraib photographs

1050
00:52:10,475 --> 00:52:13,260
of course of that hooded
Iraqi standing

1051
00:52:13,304 --> 00:52:16,742
on a box arms outstretched,
he's told

1052
00:52:16,785 --> 00:52:18,570
that if he steps off the box,
if he moves,

1053
00:52:18,613 --> 00:52:20,398
he'll be electrocuted,
that's the point

1054
00:52:20,441 --> 00:52:23,531
of the fake electrical
wires, so it's the absolute

1055
00:52:23,575 --> 00:52:25,229
immobility for
protract appearance

1056
00:52:25,272 --> 00:52:28,971
and then with arms extended,
as we'd say

1057
00:52:29,015 --> 00:52:30,669
to viewers, don't
they this at home

1058
00:52:30,712 --> 00:52:34,368
but do try it, just stand
for 10 minutes

1059
00:52:34,412 --> 00:52:37,154
with your arms stretched out,
not moving.

1060
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,331
Carolyn Wood
was an example

1061
00:52:40,374 --> 00:52:43,203
of the way new techniques
spread and mutated

1062
00:52:43,247 --> 00:52:46,772
like a virus, long before
Wood took charge

1063
00:52:46,815 --> 00:52:49,209
of interrogation at Abu Ghraib,
her unit

1064
00:52:49,253 --> 00:52:51,646
was involved with harsh
techniques at Bagram

1065
00:52:51,690 --> 00:52:54,301
including stress
positions, forced standing,

1066
00:52:54,345 --> 00:52:56,129
and sleep deprivation.

1067
00:52:56,173 --> 00:52:58,479
One of the memorandums
shows that in early

1068
00:52:58,523 --> 00:53:00,786
December 2002, the interrogators

1069
00:53:00,829 --> 00:53:03,223
at Bagram just looked
on the internet

1070
00:53:03,267 --> 00:53:04,209
they're in touch with the guys

1071
00:53:04,224 --> 00:53:05,921
at Guantanamo and they leaned

1072
00:53:05,965 --> 00:53:08,228
that these guys at
Guantanamo had gotten

1073
00:53:08,272 --> 00:53:10,796
new techniques from the
Secretary of Defense

1074
00:53:10,839 --> 00:53:12,014
and they just
started using them,

1075
00:53:12,058 --> 00:53:13,538
even though the
techniques had clearly

1076
00:53:13,581 --> 00:53:17,237
been approved exclusively
for use at Guantanamo.

1077
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,328
When General Miller
himself traveled

1078
00:53:21,372 --> 00:53:24,984
from Guantanamo to Iraq
in August 2003,

1079
00:53:25,027 --> 00:53:27,291
he brought with him a
CD and a manual

1080
00:53:27,334 --> 00:53:29,249
on the advanced
techniques they developed

1081
00:53:29,293 --> 00:53:31,077
at Guantanamo and he gave them

1082
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,384
to General Sanchez's command.

1083
00:53:33,427 --> 00:53:36,604
So there are these
multiple paths that you

1084
00:53:36,648 --> 00:53:40,129
can trace whereby these
interrogation techniques

1085
00:53:40,173 --> 00:53:42,088
go through this global migration

1086
00:53:42,131 --> 00:53:45,091
through Afghanistan to
Iraq from Guantanamo

1087
00:53:45,134 --> 00:53:48,660
directly to Iraq and that
result is Abu Ghraib.

1088
00:53:52,533 --> 00:53:54,405
Well before
the abuses at Abu Ghraib

1089
00:53:54,448 --> 00:53:56,668
became public,
Government officials

1090
00:53:56,711 --> 00:53:58,713
had been quietly
raising concerns

1091
00:53:58,757 --> 00:54:01,586
about harsh techniques
in use at Guantanamo.

1092
00:54:02,761 --> 00:54:04,937
There were emails back
to the Department

1093
00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:06,895
of Justice from FBI
personnel down

1094
00:54:06,939 --> 00:54:09,898
at Guantanamo, saying
you won't believe

1095
00:54:09,942 --> 00:54:12,074
what's going on down here,
we've gotta

1096
00:54:12,118 --> 00:54:14,947
disassociate ourselves
as FBI people

1097
00:54:14,990 --> 00:54:18,559
from what is going on
here in Guantanamo.

1098
00:54:18,603 --> 00:54:21,301
This email says, "The
DOD has their marching

1099
00:54:21,345 --> 00:54:23,434
"orders from the
Secretary of Defense."

1100
00:54:24,739 --> 00:54:27,394
Marching orders from the
Secretary of Defense.

1101
00:54:27,438 --> 00:54:29,918
"To engage in practices
which the FBI

1102
00:54:29,962 --> 00:54:33,879
"finds to be deeply
offensive and dangerous."

1103
00:54:33,922 --> 00:54:37,970
But the emails are what is
called redacted

1104
00:54:38,013 --> 00:54:40,712
which means that
there's big holes

1105
00:54:40,755 --> 00:54:43,715
in these emails, now
some of the emails

1106
00:54:43,758 --> 00:54:45,238
are totally redacted,
so we don't know

1107
00:54:45,282 --> 00:54:47,066
what they say at all,
that's an example

1108
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:50,809
a lot of the documents
that we got here.

1109
00:54:50,852 --> 00:54:54,334
You know, you can't see
anything on these documents.

1110
00:54:54,378 --> 00:54:57,206
One after another of
where there's nothing.

1111
00:55:04,823 --> 00:55:08,174
In early December 2002,
I had heard

1112
00:55:08,217 --> 00:55:10,785
that there was detainee
abuse going on.

1113
00:55:10,829 --> 00:55:12,657
I called the Army
General Counsel and asked

1114
00:55:12,700 --> 00:55:14,702
him whether he had
any information,

1115
00:55:14,746 --> 00:55:16,313
I said I'm receiving
reports that some detainees

1116
00:55:16,356 --> 00:55:17,488
are being abused in Guantanamo,

1117
00:55:17,531 --> 00:55:19,141
do you know anything about this?

1118
00:55:19,185 --> 00:55:21,709
And his response back
was I know a lot

1119
00:55:21,753 --> 00:55:23,798
about it, come on down
to my office.

1120
00:55:23,842 --> 00:55:25,800
They pushed a stack of documents

1121
00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:29,587
across the desk, top
document was a memorandum

1122
00:55:29,630 --> 00:55:31,197
from the General
Counsel to Department

1123
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,591
of Defense to Secretary Rumsfeld

1124
00:55:33,634 --> 00:55:35,157
and it was that cover
memo that requested

1125
00:55:35,201 --> 00:55:37,029
the authorization for
the application

1126
00:55:37,072 --> 00:55:39,161
of certain
interrogation techniques

1127
00:55:39,205 --> 00:55:41,729
and the top memo gave
Secretary Rumsfeld's

1128
00:55:41,773 --> 00:55:42,817
approval for the application of

1129
00:55:42,861 --> 00:55:44,079
some of those techniques.

1130
00:55:45,254 --> 00:55:46,952
It's the memo with
Secretary Rumsfeld's

1131
00:55:46,995 --> 00:55:48,780
handwritten notations
on the bottom

1132
00:55:48,823 --> 00:55:50,738
that he stands 8-10 hours a day,

1133
00:55:50,782 --> 00:55:52,871
how come these
detainees are only

1134
00:55:52,914 --> 00:55:54,873
required to stand up to
four hours a day.

1135
00:55:56,135 --> 00:55:57,919
I was astounded, but my
first reaction was

1136
00:55:57,963 --> 00:56:00,182
that this was a mistake,
somebody just

1137
00:56:00,226 --> 00:56:03,664
didn't read the documents
carefully enough.

1138
00:56:04,970 --> 00:56:06,885
I think people in
the Pentagon thought of

1139
00:56:06,928 --> 00:56:10,279
Alberto Mora as a
loyal Republican

1140
00:56:10,323 --> 00:56:12,456
political appointee,
he would never

1141
00:56:12,499 --> 00:56:14,849
have been considered a
rabble rouser

1142
00:56:14,893 --> 00:56:18,418
or a liberal, he
said he expected

1143
00:56:18,462 --> 00:56:22,248
that he would raise these issues

1144
00:56:22,291 --> 00:56:24,642
and people in
positions of authority

1145
00:56:24,685 --> 00:56:26,905
would say oh, thanks for
letting us know

1146
00:56:26,948 --> 00:56:28,385
and that would be the end of it.

1147
00:56:29,473 --> 00:56:31,083
I wanted to ask you
about a memo

1148
00:56:31,126 --> 00:56:33,433
that was written by
Alberto Mora.

1149
00:56:33,477 --> 00:56:35,304
Do you recall in this
memo that you wrote

1150
00:56:35,348 --> 00:56:36,958
a little notation at
the bottom about

1151
00:56:37,002 --> 00:56:38,873
standing more than four hours.

1152
00:56:38,917 --> 00:56:40,309
- I do.
- Because you stand at your

1153
00:56:40,353 --> 00:56:41,615
- desk.
- I do.

1154
00:56:41,659 --> 00:56:43,182
This attorney argued
that that could be

1155
00:56:43,225 --> 00:56:46,577
interpreted as some by a
wink and a nod

1156
00:56:46,620 --> 00:56:48,100
that it would be okay
to go beyond the

1157
00:56:48,143 --> 00:56:52,191
techniques that were
prescribed in the memo.

1158
00:56:52,234 --> 00:56:54,019
No, no no, it did,
there's no wink and a nod

1159
00:56:54,062 --> 00:56:56,413
about anything, there
was one provision

1160
00:56:56,456 --> 00:56:59,241
in there that they would
have people stand

1161
00:56:59,285 --> 00:57:02,593
for several hours and
it was a semi-humorous

1162
00:57:02,636 --> 00:57:05,857
remark that a person in
his seventies

1163
00:57:05,900 --> 00:57:09,034
stands all day long, I
just mused that

1164
00:57:09,077 --> 00:57:10,862
and maybe it shouldn't
have gone out

1165
00:57:10,905 --> 00:57:14,648
but it did and I wrote
it, and life goes on.

1166
00:57:14,692 --> 00:57:16,128
But his point was
that you should

1167
00:57:16,171 --> 00:57:18,260
have gotten much
better advice from

1168
00:57:18,304 --> 00:57:19,653
- your legal staff.
- I heard your question

1169
00:57:19,697 --> 00:57:22,264
- the first time.
- What was of concern to me

1170
00:57:22,308 --> 00:57:24,223
was the techniques
either individual

1171
00:57:24,266 --> 00:57:27,226
or in combination could rise
to the level or torture.

1172
00:57:27,269 --> 00:57:28,836
Okay, you're permitting
certain interrogation

1173
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,577
techniques but
certainly there must be

1174
00:57:30,621 --> 00:57:33,841
some limit which is set
upon the severity

1175
00:57:33,885 --> 00:57:36,583
of the techniques, light
deprivation could mean

1176
00:57:36,627 --> 00:57:38,455
placing the detainee
in a dark room

1177
00:57:38,498 --> 00:57:40,892
for 15 minutes or it
could mean a month

1178
00:57:40,935 --> 00:57:43,329
or two months or three
months until he goes blind.

1179
00:57:44,417 --> 00:57:47,072
Detainee specific
phobia techniques.

1180
00:57:47,115 --> 00:57:49,509
The snakes, the bats,
the rats, lock somebody

1181
00:57:49,553 --> 00:57:51,076
up in a coffin,
you're limited only

1182
00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:53,513
by your imagination, any
one of these techniques

1183
00:57:53,557 --> 00:57:56,385
individually could yield
the results of torture

1184
00:57:56,429 --> 00:57:58,083
certainly in combination,
you could

1185
00:57:58,126 --> 00:57:59,998
reach that fairly quickly.

1186
00:58:00,041 --> 00:58:02,609
See, if you put a
person into this procedure

1187
00:58:02,653 --> 00:58:04,219
and keep em there for
more than the six

1188
00:58:04,263 --> 00:58:06,744
or eight days that I
would think might be

1189
00:58:06,787 --> 00:58:09,311
the maximum tolerability,
then the price

1190
00:58:09,355 --> 00:58:11,313
- is pretty high.
- The price is someone's

1191
00:58:11,357 --> 00:58:13,533
- sanity.
- Presumably it could be.

1192
00:58:14,795 --> 00:58:16,884
The medical literature
had a phenomenon

1193
00:58:16,928 --> 00:58:18,669
known as force drift
that made it

1194
00:58:18,712 --> 00:58:20,888
almost inevitable that
the interrogators

1195
00:58:20,932 --> 00:58:22,760
would continue applying
greater and greater

1196
00:58:22,803 --> 00:58:25,893
increments of force to
achieve their desired results.

1197
00:58:25,937 --> 00:58:28,243
For example, take
Secretary Rumsfeld's memo

1198
00:58:28,287 --> 00:58:30,115
then to say that well look,
he said

1199
00:58:30,158 --> 00:58:32,770
that dogs have to be
mizzled, well that's a man

1200
00:58:32,813 --> 00:58:36,077
who doesn't understand
the military on the ground

1201
00:58:36,121 --> 00:58:38,036
because when that E-6
is sitting there

1202
00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:40,647
with that muzzled dog
and there's absolutely

1203
00:58:40,691 --> 00:58:43,998
no impact on that person
being interrogated

1204
00:58:44,042 --> 00:58:45,522
he's gonna take that muzzle off.

1205
00:58:46,610 --> 00:58:49,134
That's reality, that's
human nature.

1206
00:58:51,223 --> 00:58:52,485
Alberto
Mora threatened

1207
00:58:52,529 --> 00:58:54,313
to go on record with
his concerns

1208
00:58:54,356 --> 00:58:57,664
unless the techniques
were rescinded.

1209
00:58:57,708 --> 00:59:00,319
When after the fact
it turns out

1210
00:59:00,362 --> 00:59:01,799
that there's concern
about it that

1211
00:59:01,842 --> 00:59:05,237
concerns me then I'm
happy to rescind it

1212
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:06,630
and take another
fresh look at it

1213
00:59:06,673 --> 00:59:08,327
and talk to more people about it

1214
00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:10,155
and see what ought to be done.

1215
00:59:10,198 --> 00:59:11,504
To his credit,
Secretary Rumsfeld

1216
00:59:11,548 --> 00:59:13,593
did rescind the
interrogation techniques

1217
00:59:13,637 --> 00:59:15,290
and then for over a
year and a half

1218
00:59:15,334 --> 00:59:17,075
I heard no reports
from any quarter

1219
00:59:17,118 --> 00:59:19,120
about detainee abuse anywhere.

1220
00:59:26,998 --> 00:59:30,392
When Abu Ghraib hit, my
first thought was

1221
00:59:30,436 --> 00:59:34,048
have I been circumvented,
have their been

1222
00:59:34,092 --> 00:59:36,660
authorizations for the
abuse of prisoners

1223
00:59:36,703 --> 00:59:38,400
that I had not learned about?

1224
00:59:41,621 --> 00:59:44,102
Had the orders
really been rescinded?

1225
00:59:46,408 --> 00:59:48,454
According to interrogators,
the use

1226
00:59:48,497 --> 00:59:51,022
of shackling, dogs,
stress positions

1227
00:59:51,065 --> 00:59:54,242
and sensory assault
continued to be widespread.

1228
00:59:56,375 --> 00:59:58,072
Tony Lagouranis was
an interrogator

1229
00:59:58,116 --> 01:00:00,684
who arrived in Iraq
after the military

1230
01:00:00,727 --> 01:00:03,164
became aware of the
abuses at Abu Ghraib.

1231
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:06,428
Among the
interrogation guidelines

1232
01:00:06,472 --> 01:00:08,430
they gave us it said
that dogs are authorized

1233
01:00:08,474 --> 01:00:10,519
to be used on detainees,
you know,

1234
01:00:10,563 --> 01:00:13,087
stress positions,
sleep deprivation,

1235
01:00:13,131 --> 01:00:15,089
all of those things
that I did that

1236
01:00:15,133 --> 01:00:17,352
I would consider
harsh techniques

1237
01:00:17,396 --> 01:00:19,485
were violating the
Geneva Conventions

1238
01:00:19,528 --> 01:00:22,270
I was told to do, we were
told to do that

1239
01:00:22,314 --> 01:00:24,229
to these people by
our superiors.

1240
01:00:26,884 --> 01:00:30,235
The spine of the United
States Armed Forces

1241
01:00:30,278 --> 01:00:32,454
is the chain of command,
what starts

1242
01:00:32,498 --> 01:00:33,717
at the top of the
chain of command

1243
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,545
drops like a rock down
the chain of command

1244
01:00:36,589 --> 01:00:39,157
and that's why
Lynndie England knew

1245
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,289
what Donald Rumsfeld
was thinking

1246
01:00:41,333 --> 01:00:43,552
without actually talking
to Donald Rumsfeld.

1247
01:00:46,381 --> 01:00:48,296
In the wake
of Abu Ghraib,

1248
01:00:48,340 --> 01:00:49,776
journalists began to look harder

1249
01:00:49,820 --> 01:00:52,605
at previous cases of
abuse to try

1250
01:00:52,649 --> 01:00:54,825
to understand what
had caused them

1251
01:00:54,868 --> 01:00:56,217
and who was responsible.

1252
01:00:58,655 --> 01:01:00,569
People like Tim Golden
at the New York Times

1253
01:01:00,613 --> 01:01:02,093
got a hold of it and
started looking

1254
01:01:02,136 --> 01:01:03,703
at the case of Dilawar
in particular,

1255
01:01:03,747 --> 01:01:07,533
the taxi driver, it
became at least

1256
01:01:07,576 --> 01:01:09,622
plausible to me that this man

1257
01:01:09,666 --> 01:01:11,058
wasn't even guilty of anything

1258
01:01:11,102 --> 01:01:12,799
other than being there
when the sweep occurred

1259
01:01:12,843 --> 01:01:16,107
and here was a guy who
was murdered in detention.

1260
01:01:28,293 --> 01:01:29,860
Pay tribute
to those whose lives

1261
01:01:29,903 --> 01:01:32,340
were taken and those
who daily give

1262
01:01:32,384 --> 01:01:34,342
unselfishly of themselves.

1263
01:01:34,386 --> 01:01:37,998
Four years ago, our
nation came under attack.

1264
01:01:38,042 --> 01:01:40,261
9/11 was very
much in the air and I think

1265
01:01:40,305 --> 01:01:42,394
the officers tried to
keep it in the air

1266
01:01:42,437 --> 01:01:43,874
they tried to remind these kids

1267
01:01:43,917 --> 01:01:45,789
that these people are
our enemies.

1268
01:01:47,051 --> 01:01:49,183
But it's hard to see
how these young soldiers

1269
01:01:49,227 --> 01:01:50,707
could have been
expected to figure out

1270
01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:52,926
who the real enemies
were among a bunch

1271
01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:55,624
of militia men and
farmers in a society

1272
01:01:55,668 --> 01:01:57,452
that was completely
foreign to them.

1273
01:02:01,674 --> 01:02:03,545
If I remember correctly,
his story

1274
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:05,939
had something to do with
the rocket attack

1275
01:02:05,983 --> 01:02:08,637
on a military base and
he was supposed

1276
01:02:08,681 --> 01:02:11,292
to be the driver of
the getaway car.

1277
01:02:11,336 --> 01:02:13,599
He had taken
his new car, which he

1278
01:02:13,642 --> 01:02:15,340
was obviously excited
about and driven

1279
01:02:15,383 --> 01:02:18,212
to Khost, the
provincial capital where

1280
01:02:18,256 --> 01:02:20,780
he went to look for
taxi passengers

1281
01:02:20,824 --> 01:02:23,217
and he in fact found
these three men

1282
01:02:23,261 --> 01:02:25,611
in Khost at the market
place who were headed

1283
01:02:25,654 --> 01:02:28,005
- back to Yakubi.
- Yakubi, Yakubi!

1284
01:02:30,834 --> 01:02:32,879
You have to imagine
that Dilawar

1285
01:02:32,923 --> 01:02:36,883
was driving home from
this provincial capital

1286
01:02:36,927 --> 01:02:40,104
which was about as far
as his world stretched

1287
01:02:40,147 --> 01:02:43,803
he is stopped at Fire
Base Salerno

1288
01:02:43,847 --> 01:02:46,023
by a group of Afghan militia men

1289
01:02:46,066 --> 01:02:47,981
and the men apparently found an

1290
01:02:48,025 --> 01:02:50,157
electric stabilizer in the trunk

1291
01:02:50,201 --> 01:02:52,551
of the car, at least
they claimed to.

1292
01:02:52,594 --> 01:02:55,206
Camp Salerno had been rocketed

1293
01:02:55,249 --> 01:02:57,861
from some distance
earlier in the day

1294
01:02:57,904 --> 01:03:00,820
and the Afghan militia
men immediately

1295
01:03:00,864 --> 01:03:03,040
arrested the four
guys on suspicion

1296
01:03:03,083 --> 01:03:05,346
of having had some
involvement in that attack.

1297
01:03:07,435 --> 01:03:11,309
He's taken to Bagram,
this great distance away.

1298
01:03:11,352 --> 01:03:13,398
You get a bunch of
guys who are back

1299
01:03:13,441 --> 01:03:15,617
at this detention site
and they're told

1300
01:03:15,661 --> 01:03:17,445
we have evidence that
they have been

1301
01:03:17,489 --> 01:03:20,448
involved in a rocket
attack on American forces

1302
01:03:20,492 --> 01:03:23,582
so I think that kinda
tripped a wire in them.

1303
01:03:25,323 --> 01:03:27,542
You're in this atmosphere,
you're with

1304
01:03:27,586 --> 01:03:29,849
nothing but military
people and you feel

1305
01:03:29,893 --> 01:03:32,417
sort of morally
isolated and you lose

1306
01:03:32,460 --> 01:03:34,854
your moral bearings and
you're frustrated

1307
01:03:34,898 --> 01:03:36,160
because you're not
getting intelligence

1308
01:03:36,203 --> 01:03:38,379
from a prisoner that you
believe is guilty

1309
01:03:38,423 --> 01:03:39,728
and has intelligence to give you

1310
01:03:39,772 --> 01:03:41,382
and so of course you wanna start

1311
01:03:41,426 --> 01:03:42,819
pushing the limits and
you wanna see

1312
01:03:42,862 --> 01:03:43,862
how far you can go.

1313
01:03:45,038 --> 01:03:47,475
A lot of the pressure
came from the fact that

1314
01:03:48,999 --> 01:03:51,653
we had a few high
value detainees

1315
01:03:51,697 --> 01:03:55,614
that gave a lot of good
information and

1316
01:03:55,657 --> 01:03:57,572
when we started to lose
those detainees

1317
01:03:57,616 --> 01:04:00,140
due to going to Guantanamo Bay,

1318
01:04:00,184 --> 01:04:03,100
that they expected this
to come from everybody.

1319
01:04:03,143 --> 01:04:06,364
We would interrogate
some of these guys

1320
01:04:06,407 --> 01:04:09,019
just to interrogate em
and it was ridiculous

1321
01:04:09,062 --> 01:04:10,498
I meant you'd get some
of these guys in

1322
01:04:10,542 --> 01:04:13,632
and you're like this is
the wrong man

1323
01:04:13,675 --> 01:04:15,939
this is not who we're
supposed to have

1324
01:04:15,982 --> 01:04:17,462
especially being a
screener, you could tell

1325
01:04:17,505 --> 01:04:18,898
from the moment you got em in,
you're like

1326
01:04:18,942 --> 01:04:20,857
we're not supposed to have em.

1327
01:04:21,901 --> 01:04:24,904
We had one prisoner
came in, he was mentally

1328
01:04:24,948 --> 01:04:29,300
challenged and Sergeant
Loring kept saying

1329
01:04:29,343 --> 01:04:32,346
that you know, this is a cover,

1330
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:34,348
this is Al-Qaeda's
cover, it's what they do

1331
01:04:34,392 --> 01:04:38,265
and I went in there and
talked to him and

1332
01:04:41,181 --> 01:04:43,227
basically they had this
guy in a diaper

1333
01:04:45,316 --> 01:04:47,579
he ate his own feces but Loring

1334
01:04:47,622 --> 01:04:48,885
kept saying it was an act.

1335
01:04:49,973 --> 01:04:51,191
They'd be like hey,
we want you

1336
01:04:51,235 --> 01:04:53,193
go yell at this guy, so I'd grab

1337
01:04:53,237 --> 01:04:54,978
my box of Frosted
Flakes that I was

1338
01:04:55,021 --> 01:04:56,283
eating for breakfast
that morning<,

1339
01:04:56,327 --> 01:04:57,676
I'd go into the room
and I'd be like

1340
01:04:57,719 --> 01:04:59,112
all right, I have to
yell at you today

1341
01:04:59,156 --> 01:05:03,334
so I'd be like,
dyhoginated salt substitute

1342
01:05:03,377 --> 01:05:04,813
and just start
yelling that at him

1343
01:05:04,857 --> 01:05:06,728
and they'd look at me all crazy

1344
01:05:06,772 --> 01:05:09,296
and I'd be like yeah,
it's your fault

1345
01:05:09,340 --> 01:05:11,559
they put that in my cereal now.

1346
01:05:11,603 --> 01:05:13,953
Or I'd yell at him if
Elvis was really

1347
01:05:13,997 --> 01:05:15,650
the King of Rock or
if he was dead

1348
01:05:15,694 --> 01:05:16,956
or stuff like that and
I'd write that

1349
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,740
in my interrogation
summaries and I'd send

1350
01:05:18,784 --> 01:05:20,394
that up to higher that
that's what I did

1351
01:05:20,438 --> 01:05:22,005
for that two hours.

1352
01:05:22,048 --> 01:05:23,963
you really can't get a
feel for a person

1353
01:05:24,007 --> 01:05:26,661
till after you talk to
em a couple of times.

1354
01:05:26,705 --> 01:05:28,315
So on the first three
times I talked

1355
01:05:28,359 --> 01:05:30,274
to him it was just
verifying his story

1356
01:05:30,317 --> 01:05:33,059
looking for loops,
looking for holes.

1357
01:05:33,103 --> 01:05:34,713
After the third time I
talked to him

1358
01:05:34,756 --> 01:05:36,845
and his story was
still consistent

1359
01:05:36,889 --> 01:05:39,587
I kept telling em I
thought he was innocent.

1360
01:05:39,631 --> 01:05:41,067
And they
wanted these people

1361
01:05:41,111 --> 01:05:42,982
to be guilty because that would

1362
01:05:43,026 --> 01:05:44,070
look better for their unit.

1363
01:05:44,114 --> 01:05:45,550
They could say that we arrested

1364
01:05:45,593 --> 01:05:48,509
60 people this month and
they were all terrorists.

1365
01:05:48,553 --> 01:05:50,337
When was the last time
you saw Osama Bin Laden

1366
01:05:50,381 --> 01:05:51,730
when was the last time you
saw Mullah Omar

1367
01:05:51,773 --> 01:05:53,123
now this was a standard question

1368
01:05:53,166 --> 01:05:55,560
that was asked of
every detainee.

1369
01:05:55,603 --> 01:05:57,388
It's very hard to go
into an interrogation

1370
01:05:57,431 --> 01:05:59,129
with very little evidence
and we almost never

1371
01:05:59,172 --> 01:06:01,000
had evidence on these guys,
end elicit

1372
01:06:01,044 --> 01:06:03,524
a confession, you can go
in and get intelligence

1373
01:06:03,568 --> 01:06:05,744
but if you're asking
this guy to completely

1374
01:06:05,787 --> 01:06:07,964
incriminate himself, it's
very difficult

1375
01:06:08,007 --> 01:06:09,791
so you have to start
using harsher

1376
01:06:09,835 --> 01:06:11,010
and harsher techniques in order

1377
01:06:11,054 --> 01:06:12,925
to elicit that confession.

1378
01:06:14,361 --> 01:06:16,581
I was yelled at for
being too nice to him

1379
01:06:16,624 --> 01:06:18,539
by Sergeant Loring,
that i needed

1380
01:06:18,583 --> 01:06:20,454
to put more pressure
on him, or as he liked

1381
01:06:20,498 --> 01:06:23,022
to say, I need to take him
out of his comfort zone.

1382
01:06:27,113 --> 01:06:29,159
After a while,
particularly in the fourth

1383
01:06:29,202 --> 01:06:32,553
and fifth interrogations,
as the sleep deprivation

1384
01:06:32,597 --> 01:06:35,469
that he was being
subjected to really started

1385
01:06:35,513 --> 01:06:40,561
to knock him out, the
interrogations got more intense.

1386
01:06:40,605 --> 01:06:43,434
Sergeant Salcedo who was
an inexperienced

1387
01:06:43,477 --> 01:06:46,480
interrogator but a
can-do soldier

1388
01:06:46,524 --> 01:06:48,613
had this man who refused
to look at her

1389
01:06:48,656 --> 01:06:50,919
because she was a woman,
she said she got

1390
01:06:50,963 --> 01:06:52,747
very frustrated by this
and grabbed him

1391
01:06:52,791 --> 01:06:54,793
by the sides of face
and turned him

1392
01:06:54,836 --> 01:06:57,752
to face her and look at
her and take her

1393
01:06:57,796 --> 01:07:02,714
seriously but of course,
he was a Afghan man

1394
01:07:02,757 --> 01:07:05,543
from a tribal,
conservative culture

1395
01:07:05,586 --> 01:07:07,893
who didn't look at
strange women.

1396
01:07:09,286 --> 01:07:11,418
Sergeant Salcedo's
getting a little aggravated

1397
01:07:11,462 --> 01:07:13,942
so I kinda stepped between em

1398
01:07:13,986 --> 01:07:16,771
and that's when I grabbed
him by the shirt

1399
01:07:16,815 --> 01:07:19,078
and I brought him
over to the wall.

1400
01:07:19,122 --> 01:07:20,558
They tried to make
him stand up

1401
01:07:20,601 --> 01:07:22,690
against the wall and he
was sliding down

1402
01:07:22,734 --> 01:07:24,605
they pushed him back
against the wall.

1403
01:07:24,649 --> 01:07:26,477
He wasn't making
any kinda sounds

1404
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,262
most of it seemed to
just be rambling.

1405
01:07:30,394 --> 01:07:32,744
The interpreter was
telling me that

1406
01:07:32,787 --> 01:07:35,225
his wife came to visit
him in his cell

1407
01:07:36,487 --> 01:07:39,142
which of course didn't happen.

1408
01:07:41,187 --> 01:07:42,710
If you've ever seen anybody

1409
01:07:42,754 --> 01:07:46,845
sleep depped, past two
days they begin

1410
01:07:46,888 --> 01:07:48,586
to just be bumbling idiots.

1411
01:07:50,283 --> 01:07:52,416
Three days they're
just worthless.

1412
01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:54,940
I knew something was wrong.

1413
01:07:56,159 --> 01:07:58,335
The next thing I heard was
that he'd died.

1414
01:08:01,294 --> 01:08:03,688
Not long after
Dilawar was killed

1415
01:08:03,731 --> 01:08:06,560
we learned that the
Afghan guerrilla commander

1416
01:08:06,604 --> 01:08:08,910
who's men had arrested
Dilawar and the others

1417
01:08:08,954 --> 01:08:12,784
had in fact been detained
by the Americans himself

1418
01:08:12,827 --> 01:08:14,873
and it turned out that
he was rocketing

1419
01:08:14,916 --> 01:08:17,223
their base and then picking up

1420
01:08:17,267 --> 01:08:19,225
innocent Afghans and
turning them over

1421
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:20,661
to the Americans,
essentially to try

1422
01:08:20,705 --> 01:08:23,534
to ingratiate himself
with the US Forces.

1423
01:08:26,841 --> 01:08:29,366
The three passengers
were sent to Guantanamo

1424
01:08:29,409 --> 01:08:33,370
and they didn't get
out until March of 2004

1425
01:08:33,413 --> 01:08:36,634
which was 15 months after
they had been captured

1426
01:08:36,677 --> 01:08:37,852
riding in the taxi.

1427
01:08:41,029 --> 01:08:44,163
It's hard to know what
reason the Americans

1428
01:08:44,207 --> 01:08:46,078
would have had to send
these guys on

1429
01:08:46,122 --> 01:08:49,777
when they had quite
clearly concluded

1430
01:08:49,821 --> 01:08:53,216
that Dilawar at least was
an innocent man

1431
01:08:53,259 --> 01:08:54,391
when he was killed.

1432
01:08:57,655 --> 01:08:59,657
It certainly makes
you wonder about

1433
01:08:59,700 --> 01:09:04,357
whether they just sent these
guys on to cover their butts.

1434
01:09:10,537 --> 01:09:13,236
These are not mere innocents

1435
01:09:13,279 --> 01:09:15,412
these are among the
worst of the worst.

1436
01:09:15,455 --> 01:09:17,979
These are among the
most dangerous

1437
01:09:19,459 --> 01:09:23,724
best trained, vicious killers
on the face of the Earth.

1438
01:09:23,768 --> 01:09:25,378
They're terrorists,
they're bomb makers

1439
01:09:25,422 --> 01:09:27,424
their facilitators of
terror, they're members

1440
01:09:27,467 --> 01:09:29,513
of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban.

1441
01:09:29,556 --> 01:09:30,992
And if they were free,
they would

1442
01:09:31,036 --> 01:09:32,603
engage in murder once again.

1443
01:09:32,646 --> 01:09:33,865
The only thing I
know for certain

1444
01:09:33,908 --> 01:09:35,345
is that these are bad people.

1445
01:09:36,084 --> 01:09:38,478
Despite Rumsfeld and Cheney's

1446
01:09:38,522 --> 01:09:40,306
and President BUsh's
allegations that

1447
01:09:40,350 --> 01:09:41,916
these guys are the
worst of the worst

1448
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,788
that they were all
captured on the battlefield

1449
01:09:43,831 --> 01:09:46,269
recent studies of the
whole compendium

1450
01:09:46,312 --> 01:09:49,881
of Government's documents
show that only 5%

1451
01:09:49,924 --> 01:09:52,275
of these people were picked
up by the United States.

1452
01:09:52,318 --> 01:09:54,712
- Here search him.
- Only 8% of them

1453
01:09:54,755 --> 01:09:57,410
are accused of being
members of the Al-Qaeda.

1454
01:09:57,454 --> 01:09:59,282
Over 90% of them were picked up

1455
01:09:59,325 --> 01:10:02,372
by Northenalized or
Pakistani forces

1456
01:10:02,415 --> 01:10:04,112
in exchange for bounties.

1457
01:10:04,156 --> 01:10:06,637
We have large rewards out.

1458
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,381
We have leaflets that are
dropping like snowflakes

1459
01:10:11,424 --> 01:10:13,774
- in December in Chicago.
- Mr. Secretary,

1460
01:10:13,818 --> 01:10:16,690
- not a question.
- An analysis of de-classified

1461
01:10:16,734 --> 01:10:18,997
government documents
reveal that only

1462
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,261
7% of Guantanamo
detainees were captured

1463
01:10:22,305 --> 01:10:24,872
by US and Coalition forces.

1464
01:10:24,916 --> 01:10:28,441
The other 93% like
Dilawar and his passengers

1465
01:10:28,485 --> 01:10:30,617
were turned over by
Afghan warlords

1466
01:10:30,661 --> 01:10:34,273
and Pakistanis, sometimes
for cash payments

1467
01:10:34,317 --> 01:10:36,057
of thousands of dollars.

1468
01:10:36,101 --> 01:10:38,277
The military's not interested

1469
01:10:38,321 --> 01:10:41,193
in spending whatever it is,
$40,000 a year

1470
01:10:41,237 --> 01:10:43,326
detaining people who
are not members

1471
01:10:43,369 --> 01:10:46,807
of Al-Qaeda in Guantanamo
Bay, it has as much interest

1472
01:10:46,851 --> 01:10:48,374
as everyone else does
in making sure

1473
01:10:48,418 --> 01:10:49,854
the people who are
detained are actually

1474
01:10:49,897 --> 01:10:51,638
members of Al-Qaeda
rather than wasting

1475
01:10:51,682 --> 01:10:54,162
resources and time
detaining innocent people.

1476
01:10:55,425 --> 01:10:57,731
I think it's natural
in times of war

1477
01:10:57,775 --> 01:11:00,168
to pick up people, you
wanna pick up

1478
01:11:00,212 --> 01:11:02,170
anyone you suspect of
being dangerous.

1479
01:11:02,214 --> 01:11:03,868
What's different here is
the Government

1480
01:11:03,911 --> 01:11:05,696
for the first time
in our history

1481
01:11:05,739 --> 01:11:08,133
didn't follow its
own regulations

1482
01:11:08,176 --> 01:11:10,135
which require that a
hearing be held

1483
01:11:10,178 --> 01:11:13,443
promptly after capture
if there's any doubt.

1484
01:11:13,486 --> 01:11:16,141
In the war in
Afghanistan back in 2001

1485
01:11:16,184 --> 01:11:17,708
the US military was
prepared to follow

1486
01:11:17,751 --> 01:11:19,144
the Geneva
Conventions and conduct

1487
01:11:19,187 --> 01:11:21,059
those tribunals, unfortunately

1488
01:11:21,102 --> 01:11:22,365
the civilian
leadership within the

1489
01:11:22,408 --> 01:11:25,150
Department of Defense
told them to stop.

1490
01:11:25,193 --> 01:11:26,934
Once somebody in
Afghanistan might have

1491
01:11:26,978 --> 01:11:29,633
said okay this person's
a high value target

1492
01:11:29,676 --> 01:11:31,809
for whatever reason,
whether it was based

1493
01:11:31,852 --> 01:11:34,159
on some other Afghani who hated

1494
01:11:34,202 --> 01:11:35,465
that person and wanted him out

1495
01:11:35,508 --> 01:11:37,684
so he could take over
his opium crop

1496
01:11:37,728 --> 01:11:40,078
then that began the
road to Gitmo

1497
01:11:40,121 --> 01:11:42,385
and there was no way
for that person

1498
01:11:42,428 --> 01:11:45,301
to challenge it and
there still hasn't been.

1499
01:11:48,042 --> 01:11:49,479
Moazzam
Begg, a British subject

1500
01:11:49,522 --> 01:11:52,133
suspected of ties to
Al-Qaeda operatives

1501
01:11:52,177 --> 01:11:53,874
was picked up by
local intelligence

1502
01:11:53,918 --> 01:11:55,746
agents in Pakistan.

1503
01:11:55,789 --> 01:11:58,662
I was in my house in
Islamabad at the time

1504
01:11:58,705 --> 01:12:00,794
when I was abducted, a
hood was placed

1505
01:12:00,838 --> 01:12:03,449
over my head, my hands
and legs were shackled

1506
01:12:03,493 --> 01:12:04,392
and I was physically
carried into

1507
01:12:04,407 --> 01:12:05,407
the back of the vehicle.

1508
01:12:06,670 --> 01:12:08,759
I didn't see my family
again after that point.

1509
01:12:09,977 --> 01:12:12,371
I was sent to Kandahar
and then to Bagram

1510
01:12:12,415 --> 01:12:15,243
and when I was put onto
the transport plane

1511
01:12:15,287 --> 01:12:18,464
to Guantanamo, I had
already been covered

1512
01:12:18,508 --> 01:12:20,466
almost from head to
toe in some sort

1513
01:12:20,510 --> 01:12:22,860
of a covering, face mask,
earmuffs,

1514
01:12:22,903 --> 01:12:25,515
blackened goggles and
then just in case

1515
01:12:25,558 --> 01:12:27,865
I could see anything, a
hood to cover it with.

1516
01:12:28,909 --> 01:12:30,258
Being seated on the aircraft was

1517
01:12:30,302 --> 01:12:31,912
excruciatingly painful,
they'd already

1518
01:12:31,956 --> 01:12:33,827
used now the
three-piece-suit and that is

1519
01:12:33,871 --> 01:12:35,916
the shackle that goes
around the waist

1520
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:37,309
and is padlocked at the back.

1521
01:12:37,353 --> 01:12:39,267
It was impossible to move
and impossible

1522
01:12:39,311 --> 01:12:41,531
to breathe properly,
impossible to hear anything

1523
01:12:41,574 --> 01:12:43,924
and so I managed to
scream and pleaded

1524
01:12:43,968 --> 01:12:45,665
with one of the
guards to give me

1525
01:12:45,709 --> 01:12:47,537
a needle to put me to sleep.

1526
01:12:57,329 --> 01:12:59,723
We fought for two
and a half years

1527
01:12:59,766 --> 01:13:01,507
for just the right to go
see the prisoners

1528
01:13:01,551 --> 01:13:03,422
and then fought for
months year to get

1529
01:13:03,466 --> 01:13:05,642
security clearance so
the military

1530
01:13:05,685 --> 01:13:08,775
would let you in there,
I mean this is bizarre

1531
01:13:08,819 --> 01:13:11,517
it never occurred to me
that when I went

1532
01:13:11,561 --> 01:13:14,868
to law school in
America that we'd be

1533
01:13:14,912 --> 01:13:16,087
sitting around talking
about whether

1534
01:13:16,130 --> 01:13:17,784
we could have access
to our clients

1535
01:13:17,828 --> 01:13:20,439
and whether our clients
had been tortured.

1536
01:13:20,483 --> 01:13:23,007
Habeas corpus is
really the essence

1537
01:13:23,050 --> 01:13:25,401
of the rule of law, not
giving people

1538
01:13:25,444 --> 01:13:27,315
a basic hearing when
you take away

1539
01:13:27,359 --> 01:13:29,317
their liberty is one
of the reasons

1540
01:13:29,361 --> 01:13:30,841
we fought the Revolution,
that the King

1541
01:13:30,884 --> 01:13:32,451
can't deprive
somebody of liberty

1542
01:13:32,495 --> 01:13:33,670
without a hearing.

1543
01:14:32,511 --> 01:14:34,644
In 2004, two
and a half years

1544
01:14:34,687 --> 01:14:36,515
after the first
detainees had arrived

1545
01:14:36,559 --> 01:14:38,691
in Guantanamo, the Supreme Court

1546
01:14:38,735 --> 01:14:41,085
rejected the Bush
Administration's claims

1547
01:14:41,128 --> 01:14:43,043
that it could hold
detainees indefinitely

1548
01:14:43,087 --> 01:14:44,958
without allowing them
to challenge

1549
01:14:45,002 --> 01:14:46,743
their detention in the courts.

1550
01:14:47,787 --> 01:14:50,137
After the decision, the military

1551
01:14:50,181 --> 01:14:52,139
installed special new tribunals

1552
01:14:52,183 --> 01:14:54,968
to judge whether
detainees should remain

1553
01:14:55,012 --> 01:14:57,405
- in Guantanamo.
- The Combatant Status

1554
01:14:57,449 --> 01:14:59,190
Review Tribunals, which
the Government

1555
01:14:59,233 --> 01:15:02,541
hurriedly put in place,
nine days

1556
01:15:02,585 --> 01:15:05,805
after we won before the
Supreme Court, are a joke.

1557
01:15:05,849 --> 01:15:07,198
You have no rights,
you have no right

1558
01:15:07,241 --> 01:15:08,852
to a lawyer, you have no
meaningful right

1559
01:15:08,895 --> 01:15:10,157
to witnesses, you
don't really know

1560
01:15:10,201 --> 01:15:11,942
what the charges are
and you certainly

1561
01:15:11,985 --> 01:15:14,292
don't know what the secret
evidence is against you.

1562
01:15:14,335 --> 01:15:16,729
They may not ever
know it but that doesn't

1563
01:15:16,773 --> 01:15:19,036
that doesn't eliminate
the opportunity

1564
01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:21,386
they have to make a case for why

1565
01:15:21,429 --> 01:15:23,780
if they were returned
in the future

1566
01:15:23,823 --> 01:15:26,086
why they would not
continue to pose a threat.

1567
01:15:27,131 --> 01:15:29,002
My clients are
found not guilty

1568
01:15:29,046 --> 01:15:32,005
at the CSRT tribunals and then

1569
01:15:32,049 --> 01:15:33,224
the military thinks
that doesn't sound

1570
01:15:33,267 --> 01:15:34,530
so good, they were being called

1571
01:15:34,573 --> 01:15:37,620
Not Enemy Combatants, NEC,
but now

1572
01:15:37,663 --> 01:15:40,623
they're NLEC, which
means no longer

1573
01:15:40,666 --> 01:15:42,276
enemy combatant because we want

1574
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:44,235
to say that they were
guilty to begin with

1575
01:15:44,278 --> 01:15:45,628
but now they've had a
change of heart

1576
01:15:45,671 --> 01:15:47,020
so they're not guilty anymore,
but we

1577
01:15:47,064 --> 01:15:48,718
were right in the first place.

1578
01:15:48,761 --> 01:15:51,764
These men aren't
necessarily innocent men

1579
01:15:51,808 --> 01:15:55,028
that's not an accurate
characterization.

1580
01:15:55,072 --> 01:15:57,988
You are more accurate in
their long title,

1581
01:15:58,031 --> 01:16:01,774
no longer identified
as an enemy combatant.

1582
01:16:01,818 --> 01:16:03,515
They are being held
separate from

1583
01:16:03,559 --> 01:16:05,343
the remainder of the
detainees until

1584
01:16:05,386 --> 01:16:07,606
the United States
Government can find

1585
01:16:07,650 --> 01:16:10,348
a country they can be
returned to.

1586
01:16:10,391 --> 01:16:11,567
Some of these guys
were policed off

1587
01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:14,874
the battlefield and if
they weren't here

1588
01:16:14,918 --> 01:16:16,833
they would probably be on
the battlefield

1589
01:16:16,876 --> 01:16:18,878
killing American soldiers.

1590
01:16:18,922 --> 01:16:21,054
They're here for a reason
and it's our job

1591
01:16:21,098 --> 01:16:24,014
to ensure that they
stay here until

1592
01:16:24,057 --> 01:16:26,146
such time as it's deemed
they don't need

1593
01:16:26,190 --> 01:16:27,190
to be here any longer.

1594
01:16:28,235 --> 01:16:30,324
Guantanamo
is hiding the fact that

1595
01:16:30,368 --> 01:16:32,892
the really bad dudes,
Mullah Omar

1596
01:16:32,936 --> 01:16:34,198
and of course, Osama Bin Laden

1597
01:16:34,241 --> 01:16:36,287
have never been captured,
so you have

1598
01:16:36,330 --> 01:16:39,812
Guantanamo Bay as here
are 750 really evil guys

1599
01:16:39,856 --> 01:16:43,163
as a PR stunt effectively to say

1600
01:16:43,207 --> 01:16:44,774
look, we're really
achieving something

1601
01:16:44,817 --> 01:16:45,862
in the war on terror.

1602
01:16:59,919 --> 01:17:02,313
# Come along with me

1603
01:17:02,356 --> 01:17:06,534
# To my little corner
of the world #

1604
01:17:06,578 --> 01:17:08,580
- # Dream
- And that is the main

1605
01:17:08,624 --> 01:17:09,799
entrance to Camp X-Ray.

1606
01:17:09,842 --> 01:17:11,235
It would be extremely difficult

1607
01:17:11,278 --> 01:17:13,933
for anybody to make an
escape out of here.

1608
01:17:13,977 --> 01:17:16,457
- # You'll soon forget
- Each one is eight by eight

1609
01:17:16,501 --> 01:17:18,764
by eight, one
individual per cell.

1610
01:17:20,157 --> 01:17:22,333
If you member the individual
in orange jump suits

1611
01:17:22,376 --> 01:17:23,987
there's three or four
kneeling facing that way

1612
01:17:24,030 --> 01:17:26,685
and three or four
kneeling, facing that way

1613
01:17:26,729 --> 01:17:27,904
if you take a shot
from right here

1614
01:17:27,947 --> 01:17:29,296
you're gonna have
the same image.

1615
01:17:30,384 --> 01:17:32,865
And no detainee has
ever died at Gitmo

1616
01:17:32,909 --> 01:17:34,911
from anything, and I
think the docs'll

1617
01:17:34,954 --> 01:17:36,129
give you an update we performed

1618
01:17:36,173 --> 01:17:39,306
well over 100 surgeries,
so one good thing

1619
01:17:39,350 --> 01:17:41,091
for them being here is
they are quite healthy

1620
01:17:41,134 --> 01:17:42,353
and they're getting
everything fixed

1621
01:17:42,396 --> 01:17:43,702
they need to get fixed.

1622
01:17:44,790 --> 01:17:49,490
# I always knew that I'd
find someone like you #

1623
01:17:50,753 --> 01:17:52,668
We've introduced some
new sports-type

1624
01:17:52,711 --> 01:17:55,409
activities here in Camp Four,
we recently

1625
01:17:55,453 --> 01:17:57,020
built this half basketball court

1626
01:17:57,063 --> 01:17:59,326
and off to the left of that,
you will see

1627
01:17:59,370 --> 01:18:01,720
a soccer court, it
is a privilege

1628
01:18:01,764 --> 01:18:04,201
to live in Camp Four,
they are compliant

1629
01:18:04,244 --> 01:18:06,116
with the camp rules in
order to live here.

1630
01:18:06,159 --> 01:18:09,728
And we have introduced
things like cake

1631
01:18:09,772 --> 01:18:12,035
on Wednesday nights,
Pepsi on Monday nights

1632
01:18:12,078 --> 01:18:14,341
ice cream on Sunday nights.

1633
01:18:14,385 --> 01:18:16,866
Let's go in and take a
look at the Bay.

1634
01:18:16,909 --> 01:18:19,433
On the bed they have
the so-called CIs

1635
01:18:19,477 --> 01:18:23,176
or comfort items which
include toothbrush

1636
01:18:23,220 --> 01:18:25,483
but also include a
game of Checkers

1637
01:18:25,526 --> 01:18:26,919
and I did ask them
who's my client

1638
01:18:26,963 --> 01:18:28,225
meant to play Checkers with,
he's in

1639
01:18:28,268 --> 01:18:30,270
solitary confinement by himself.

1640
01:18:31,532 --> 01:18:33,578
- # And with.
- What is the problem

1641
01:18:33,621 --> 01:18:35,623
with the press
photographing them,

1642
01:18:35,667 --> 01:18:38,409
talking with them,
observing them?

1643
01:18:38,452 --> 01:18:41,194
Desire to not
provide a platform

1644
01:18:42,369 --> 01:18:45,198
to have the men we're
holding espouse

1645
01:18:45,242 --> 01:18:49,246
a vile, Islamic rhetoric,
a violent,

1646
01:18:49,289 --> 01:18:52,989
vile, Islamic rhetoric.
# Find someone like you

1647
01:18:53,032 --> 01:18:57,994
# So we'll go to our little
corner of the world #

1648
01:19:03,216 --> 01:19:05,784
This is a tactic of Al-Qaeda.

1649
01:19:05,828 --> 01:19:07,743
Hunger strike to elicit
media attention

1650
01:19:09,353 --> 01:19:11,659
and to bring pressure on the
United States Government.

1651
01:19:11,703 --> 01:19:13,487
When these numbers went
up significantly,

1652
01:19:13,531 --> 01:19:14,662
you guys start talking about it,

1653
01:19:14,706 --> 01:19:16,708
you guys start asking about it,
so

1654
01:19:16,752 --> 01:19:17,752
they understand that.

1655
01:19:18,797 --> 01:19:21,147
Camp Five is a 100 bed
maximum security

1656
01:19:21,191 --> 01:19:23,976
segregation and
interrogation facility.

1657
01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:25,195
If they're
held in Camp Five,

1658
01:19:25,238 --> 01:19:27,023
an average day is
always the same.

1659
01:19:27,066 --> 01:19:29,721
Which is, you're held 24 hours

1660
01:19:29,765 --> 01:19:31,375
in solitary confinement.

1661
01:19:33,072 --> 01:19:34,378
Here in the cell,
was eight foot

1662
01:19:34,421 --> 01:19:36,119
by six foot and I
couldn't physically

1663
01:19:36,162 --> 01:19:38,338
take three steps in
any direction.

1664
01:19:39,775 --> 01:19:41,080
I certainly believed that
I was going to

1665
01:19:41,124 --> 01:19:42,821
spend the greater
part of my life

1666
01:19:42,865 --> 01:19:44,605
and perhaps even face execution,

1667
01:19:44,649 --> 01:19:47,260
which was what I was
told quite often.

1668
01:19:47,304 --> 01:19:50,394
What's particularly
pernicious in Guantanamo Bay

1669
01:19:50,437 --> 01:19:52,222
is there is no sense
of when it's gonna end

1670
01:19:52,265 --> 01:19:54,877
or if it's gonna end
and the reason

1671
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:56,661
that prisoners go on a
hunger strike

1672
01:19:56,704 --> 01:19:58,489
for example and may
starve themselves

1673
01:19:58,532 --> 01:20:01,535
to death is in the words
of Omar Deghayes

1674
01:20:01,579 --> 01:20:03,799
"I'm dying slowly here
in Guantanamo

1675
01:20:03,842 --> 01:20:05,626
"as it is, so I may as well take

1676
01:20:05,670 --> 01:20:07,498
"my life into my own hands."

1677
01:20:12,372 --> 01:20:15,071
I have no intention
of holding somebody here

1678
01:20:15,114 --> 01:20:17,595
any longer than he is
a threat to our country

1679
01:20:17,638 --> 01:20:19,771
or that he has
intelligence or information

1680
01:20:19,815 --> 01:20:21,120
that could be valuable to us in

1681
01:20:21,164 --> 01:20:22,556
the global war on terror.

1682
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:24,123
We continue to
collect information

1683
01:20:24,167 --> 01:20:26,604
of value from the men
we're holding today.

1684
01:20:31,914 --> 01:20:33,350
One of the reasons
why I was held

1685
01:20:33,393 --> 01:20:35,004
in isolation was to do
with this issue

1686
01:20:35,047 --> 01:20:38,137
of witnessing these
deaths in Bagram

1687
01:20:38,181 --> 01:20:39,617
and they asked me which soldiers

1688
01:20:39,660 --> 01:20:41,097
had been involved and
were around at the time

1689
01:20:41,140 --> 01:20:43,490
so they brought in
photographs of the people

1690
01:20:43,534 --> 01:20:46,058
from the unit and I pointed out

1691
01:20:46,102 --> 01:20:47,712
to who I believed was involved.

1692
01:20:48,974 --> 01:20:50,671
They asked me one of the
strangest things

1693
01:20:50,715 --> 01:20:52,935
requests I've ever had
during the time

1694
01:20:52,978 --> 01:20:55,502
I was in
incarceration and that was

1695
01:20:55,546 --> 01:20:57,896
would I be willing to
stand up as a witness

1696
01:20:57,940 --> 01:21:00,072
for the prosecution in
a trial against

1697
01:21:00,116 --> 01:21:02,596
these soldiers and I
thought how ironic this is

1698
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:04,511
you know, is this the only court

1699
01:21:04,555 --> 01:21:06,339
that I'm going to get
to see after

1700
01:21:06,383 --> 01:21:08,037
all these years in
incarceration?

1701
01:21:16,436 --> 01:21:17,568
The cruel ironies

1702
01:21:17,611 --> 01:21:19,570
of the Dilawar story
echoed in ongoing

1703
01:21:19,613 --> 01:21:22,007
debate in the halls of Congress

1704
01:21:22,051 --> 01:21:24,923
about detainee abuse,
national security

1705
01:21:24,967 --> 01:21:25,967
and the rule of law.

1706
01:21:26,969 --> 01:21:29,449
For one Senator, John McCain,
a former

1707
01:21:29,493 --> 01:21:31,495
prisoner of war, the matter of

1708
01:21:31,538 --> 01:21:34,933
detainee abuse was both
political and personal.

1709
01:21:38,763 --> 01:21:40,112
I would just like to tell

1710
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:49,469
my wife I'm
going to get well

1711
01:21:53,647 --> 01:21:56,824
I love her, and I hope
to see her soon

1712
01:22:00,132 --> 01:22:02,308
and I'd appreciate if
if you tell her that.

1713
01:22:07,009 --> 01:22:08,009
That's all.

1714
01:22:09,837 --> 01:22:12,579
If this man, after
six and a half

1715
01:22:12,623 --> 01:22:16,061
or seven years of torture
says that it's not

1716
01:22:16,105 --> 01:22:21,153
efficient, it's inhumane,
and it breeds

1717
01:22:21,197 --> 01:22:23,590
contempt for the United States,

1718
01:22:23,634 --> 01:22:27,290
he can stand up and be
a moral voice

1719
01:22:27,333 --> 01:22:29,683
- on this issue.
- We sent them to fight

1720
01:22:29,727 --> 01:22:31,947
for us in Afghanistan and Iraq,

1721
01:22:31,990 --> 01:22:34,166
we placed extraordinary
pressure on them

1722
01:22:34,210 --> 01:22:37,387
to extract intelligence
from detainees

1723
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:38,779
but then we threw out the rules

1724
01:22:38,823 --> 01:22:40,956
that our soldiers had trained on

1725
01:22:40,999 --> 01:22:42,696
and replaced them
with a confusing

1726
01:22:42,740 --> 01:22:46,439
and constantly changing
array of standards

1727
01:22:46,483 --> 01:22:48,659
and when things went wrong,
we blamed them

1728
01:22:48,702 --> 01:22:50,356
and we punished them.

1729
01:22:52,054 --> 01:22:54,099
I believe we have to do
better than that.

1730
01:22:56,493 --> 01:22:58,582
I strongly urge you
to do justice

1731
01:22:58,625 --> 01:23:00,497
to your men and women in uniform

1732
01:23:01,628 --> 01:23:03,543
give them clear
standards of conduct

1733
01:23:03,587 --> 01:23:07,243
that reflect the ideals
they risk their lives for.

1734
01:23:11,073 --> 01:23:13,249
On October 5th,
2005

1735
01:23:13,292 --> 01:23:15,599
as increasing numbers
of detainee abuse cases

1736
01:23:15,642 --> 01:23:18,167
came to trial,
Senator John McCain

1737
01:23:18,210 --> 01:23:20,299
proposed the Detainee
Treatment Act.

1738
01:23:22,388 --> 01:23:25,391
The bill sought a total
US ban on torture

1739
01:23:25,435 --> 01:23:28,003
as well as cruel, inhuman
and degrading treatment

1740
01:23:29,047 --> 01:23:31,571
and it sparked a
national debate,

1741
01:23:31,615 --> 01:23:35,227
one in which the devil was
in the details.

1742
01:23:35,271 --> 01:23:37,534
Is it still permissible to use

1743
01:23:37,577 --> 01:23:39,231
a wet towel and dripping water

1744
01:23:39,275 --> 01:23:42,800
to induce the misperception
of suffocation?

1745
01:23:42,843 --> 01:23:44,628
The use of the wet towel,
dripping water

1746
01:23:44,671 --> 01:23:46,586
to induce misperceptions
of suffocation

1747
01:23:46,630 --> 01:23:50,025
was one of the
techniques requested

1748
01:23:50,068 --> 01:23:52,418
by the JTF in their laundry list

1749
01:23:52,462 --> 01:23:54,551
given up, it was never approved,

1750
01:23:54,594 --> 01:23:57,510
it has never been a
technique approved.

1751
01:23:57,554 --> 01:23:58,903
One of the
techniques that made

1752
01:23:58,946 --> 01:24:01,297
the transition from the
regime of the physical

1753
01:24:01,340 --> 01:24:03,908
to the psychological, in
fact the only one

1754
01:24:03,951 --> 01:24:06,084
really was waterboarding,
because in

1755
01:24:06,128 --> 01:24:08,173
the medieval era under
the Inquisition,

1756
01:24:08,217 --> 01:24:10,871
it was done because
of its horrible

1757
01:24:10,915 --> 01:24:13,178
physical aspects, it
was done to purge

1758
01:24:13,222 --> 01:24:16,051
and punish the heretic,
you forced

1759
01:24:16,094 --> 01:24:18,096
water down the throat
of the victim

1760
01:24:18,140 --> 01:24:20,142
the victim thinks that
he's drowning,

1761
01:24:20,185 --> 01:24:23,362
it's horrible, your body
tells you that you're dying.

1762
01:24:23,406 --> 01:24:27,410
Right after 9/11, the CIA

1763
01:24:27,453 --> 01:24:30,065
got approval from the White
House for waterboarding.

1764
01:24:31,414 --> 01:24:32,893
An early
test case involving

1765
01:24:32,937 --> 01:24:35,418
the interrogation of Ibn
Shaikh al-Libi

1766
01:24:35,461 --> 01:24:37,202
A man suspected of
being the Amir

1767
01:24:37,246 --> 01:24:38,812
of an Al-Qaeda training camp.

1768
01:24:40,249 --> 01:24:42,120
Initially, the FBI was in charge

1769
01:24:42,164 --> 01:24:44,514
of his interrogation
but the Administration

1770
01:24:44,557 --> 01:24:46,255
was impatient with
the slow results

1771
01:24:46,298 --> 01:24:49,084
of the FBIs law
enforcement techniques

1772
01:24:49,127 --> 01:24:52,043
so they turned al-Libi
over to the CIA.

1773
01:24:52,087 --> 01:24:55,177
He is secured, he was
either duck taped

1774
01:24:55,220 --> 01:24:57,179
or hooded and he was
gonna be put in

1775
01:24:57,222 --> 01:25:01,313
to a box, plywood box,
for his own protection

1776
01:25:02,488 --> 01:25:05,187
for transfer
to the airport.

1777
01:25:05,230 --> 01:25:06,492
They threw him on an aircraft

1778
01:25:06,536 --> 01:25:08,625
and they rendered him
through extraordinary

1779
01:25:08,668 --> 01:25:12,194
rendition to Egypt.

1780
01:25:12,237 --> 01:25:14,848
They later subjected
him to two weeks

1781
01:25:14,892 --> 01:25:17,199
of brutal torture involving
all these techniques

1782
01:25:17,242 --> 01:25:20,463
including
waterboarding and they got

1783
01:25:20,506 --> 01:25:22,595
information from al-Libi stating

1784
01:25:22,639 --> 01:25:24,945
that Saddam Hussain's
regime had trained

1785
01:25:24,989 --> 01:25:28,906
Al-Qaeda in chemical
and biological warfare.

1786
01:25:28,949 --> 01:25:31,909
One of the things we
know about torture

1787
01:25:31,952 --> 01:25:34,825
is that someone who is tortured

1788
01:25:34,868 --> 01:25:38,481
will tell his
interrogator what he thinks

1789
01:25:38,524 --> 01:25:41,701
the interrogator wants to hear.

1790
01:25:41,745 --> 01:25:44,139
The moment al-Libi
was waterboarded

1791
01:25:44,182 --> 01:25:46,445
he started blurting things out,

1792
01:25:46,489 --> 01:25:48,752
well rather than
questioning what

1793
01:25:48,795 --> 01:25:51,320
he was saying and going
into it in detail

1794
01:25:51,363 --> 01:25:53,626
to see if what he was
saying could be corroborated

1795
01:25:53,670 --> 01:25:56,542
they immediately
stopped and ran off

1796
01:25:56,586 --> 01:25:59,066
to report what al-Libi had said

1797
01:25:59,110 --> 01:26:01,765
and ended the torture and bang,

1798
01:26:01,808 --> 01:26:03,810
it gets up to the highest
decision makers

1799
01:26:03,854 --> 01:26:05,638
and all of a sudden Colin
Powell is told

1800
01:26:05,682 --> 01:26:07,205
hey, you don't have
to worry about

1801
01:26:07,249 --> 01:26:09,903
your doubts anymore
because we've just gotten

1802
01:26:09,947 --> 01:26:11,383
confirmation that there were

1803
01:26:11,427 --> 01:26:13,777
contacts between
Al-Qaeda and Baghdad.

1804
01:26:15,561 --> 01:26:17,650
In February 2003,

1805
01:26:17,694 --> 01:26:20,175
then Secretary of
State Colin Powell

1806
01:26:20,218 --> 01:26:21,872
went before the United Nations

1807
01:26:21,915 --> 01:26:24,788
to make the case for
the war in Iraq.

1808
01:26:24,831 --> 01:26:27,094
I can trace the
story of a senior

1809
01:26:27,138 --> 01:26:29,401
terrorist operative telling how

1810
01:26:29,445 --> 01:26:32,056
Iraq provided training
in these weapons

1811
01:26:32,099 --> 01:26:35,538
to Al Qaeda, fortunately,
this operative

1812
01:26:35,581 --> 01:26:39,150
is now detained and he has
told his story.

1813
01:26:39,194 --> 01:26:43,241
A year later, the CIA
branded al-Libi

1814
01:26:43,285 --> 01:26:46,549
a fabricator, rescinded
all the intelligence

1815
01:26:46,592 --> 01:26:48,899
reports with that
information in it.

1816
01:26:48,942 --> 01:26:50,466
So in other words, you
will get information

1817
01:26:50,509 --> 01:26:52,729
but you'll get false
information.

1818
01:26:53,686 --> 01:26:54,731
I think Colin Powell has said

1819
01:26:54,774 --> 01:26:56,211
that was the most
embarrassing day

1820
01:26:56,254 --> 01:26:59,562
of his entire life.

1821
01:27:02,434 --> 01:27:05,350
All the experts say
that torturing people

1822
01:27:05,394 --> 01:27:08,614
is not the best way to
get information.

1823
01:27:09,659 --> 01:27:12,488
Breaking down the
barriers between

1824
01:27:12,531 --> 01:27:15,752
you and them gaining
their confidence

1825
01:27:15,795 --> 01:27:17,841
is the best way to get it.

1826
01:27:17,884 --> 01:27:19,582
It takes some experience,
it takes

1827
01:27:19,625 --> 01:27:21,801
some talent, it takes
some patience

1828
01:27:21,845 --> 01:27:23,238
and then they might
actually tell you

1829
01:27:23,281 --> 01:27:25,414
something that is
worthwhile and then

1830
01:27:25,457 --> 01:27:29,156
if you wanna prosecute them
and execute em, go ahead.

1831
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:31,071
You wanna be able to
build a rapport

1832
01:27:31,115 --> 01:27:34,249
with somebody, you are
their salvation

1833
01:27:34,292 --> 01:27:36,555
because their life as
they know it is over.

1834
01:27:39,210 --> 01:27:40,777
Is there something I can
do for your kids?

1835
01:27:40,820 --> 01:27:41,820
You concerned about them?

1836
01:27:42,909 --> 01:27:45,260
You want them educated,
I'll get them educated.

1837
01:27:47,044 --> 01:27:49,046
What do you want, tell me
what you want,

1838
01:27:50,134 --> 01:27:53,442
script for me your exit strategy

1839
01:27:53,485 --> 01:27:55,313
how do you extricate
yourself from this

1840
01:27:55,357 --> 01:27:57,968
terrible situation, by the way,
that you

1841
01:27:58,011 --> 01:28:01,537
put yourself in, now
you can't go back home.

1842
01:28:03,321 --> 01:28:05,802
Can you, no, so let's
make peace with that.

1843
01:28:05,845 --> 01:28:08,021
Let me help you find
the strategy

1844
01:28:08,065 --> 01:28:13,026
to give you a life, and
that's the way it worked.

1845
01:28:14,158 --> 01:28:16,465
The amount of
information that they

1846
01:28:16,508 --> 01:28:19,424
were able to provide us pre-9/11

1847
01:28:19,468 --> 01:28:22,297
to me, it was
extremely valuable.

1848
01:28:22,340 --> 01:28:24,995
Who else was gonna
tell us about how

1849
01:28:25,038 --> 01:28:29,260
you joined Al-Qaeda, what
did bayat mean?

1850
01:28:29,304 --> 01:28:30,957
How did they communicate?

1851
01:28:31,001 --> 01:28:33,438
Did they use Inmarsat
satellite phones?

1852
01:28:33,482 --> 01:28:35,571
Did bin Laden use a body double?

1853
01:28:35,614 --> 01:28:37,703
So when we got all
that information

1854
01:28:37,747 --> 01:28:40,880
we were able to do
certain operations.

1855
01:28:40,924 --> 01:28:43,970
Cumbersome though it may be,
it still

1856
01:28:44,014 --> 01:28:47,017
to me was the way to
do it and we

1857
01:28:47,060 --> 01:28:48,888
don't have to
apologize to anybody.

1858
01:28:50,673 --> 01:28:52,370
We don't know what
revenge is coming

1859
01:28:52,414 --> 01:28:55,895
down the road, and
if I wanted to

1860
01:28:55,939 --> 01:28:57,897
insight the faithful,
I'd just take one

1861
01:28:57,941 --> 01:29:00,422
picture with a dog
collar on and just

1862
01:29:00,465 --> 01:29:02,641
point into that and look
at the young brothers

1863
01:29:02,685 --> 01:29:05,252
and say you're duty
bound now to get revenge.

1864
01:29:10,823 --> 01:29:13,348
The advocates
of torture generally

1865
01:29:13,391 --> 01:29:15,567
focus on the hypothetical,
they have

1866
01:29:15,611 --> 01:29:17,700
this ticking bomb center
they talk about.

1867
01:29:17,743 --> 01:29:19,484
Which is imagine that
there's a ticking

1868
01:29:19,528 --> 01:29:22,313
time bomb in Times Square,
it's about

1869
01:29:22,357 --> 01:29:24,184
to go off, we've got the
guy in custody

1870
01:29:24,228 --> 01:29:27,405
he says he wants a lawyer,
do we respect

1871
01:29:27,449 --> 01:29:29,755
his right to a lawyer, or
to save a million lives,

1872
01:29:29,799 --> 01:29:33,106
do we apply the electrodes
to his testicles?

1873
01:29:38,851 --> 01:29:43,682
24 week after week
has on-camera displays

1874
01:29:43,726 --> 01:29:45,728
- of brutal torture.
- Just tell me

1875
01:29:45,771 --> 01:29:47,382
what's your connection
to terrorists?

1876
01:29:47,425 --> 01:29:49,296
Designed to stop
some terrorist

1877
01:29:49,340 --> 01:29:51,342
with a ticking bomb from killing

1878
01:29:51,386 --> 01:29:52,735
hundreds of thousands
if not millions

1879
01:29:52,778 --> 01:29:54,737
- of Americans.
- You're talking about

1880
01:29:54,780 --> 01:29:56,216
- torturing this man?
- I'm talking about

1881
01:29:56,260 --> 01:29:57,566
doing what is necessary to stop

1882
01:29:57,609 --> 01:29:59,437
this warhead from being
used against us.

1883
01:29:59,481 --> 01:30:00,873
It's just nonsense though,
because

1884
01:30:00,917 --> 01:30:03,310
then you ask, hey,
name me one time

1885
01:30:03,354 --> 01:30:05,182
in the last five hundred years

1886
01:30:05,225 --> 01:30:06,705
when we've had
someone in custody

1887
01:30:06,749 --> 01:30:08,098
with a ticking time bomb.

1888
01:30:08,141 --> 01:30:11,580
The likelihood of that
ever happening

1889
01:30:11,623 --> 01:30:15,758
is so remote, even if
you're in that situation

1890
01:30:15,801 --> 01:30:17,542
who's to say that if
you beat em up

1891
01:30:17,586 --> 01:30:19,675
that you're gonna get
that information?

1892
01:30:19,718 --> 01:30:21,677
If a guy's that committed,
I think he'll die

1893
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:23,330
before he gives it up.

1894
01:30:24,506 --> 01:30:26,203
Right after the
release of the Abu Ghraib

1895
01:30:26,246 --> 01:30:30,555
photos in mid-2004,
35% of Americans polled

1896
01:30:30,599 --> 01:30:32,122
believed that torture
was acceptable

1897
01:30:32,165 --> 01:30:35,386
under some circumstances,
even after

1898
01:30:35,430 --> 01:30:37,997
the Abu Ghraib phots,
and I think that shows

1899
01:30:38,041 --> 01:30:40,347
the way that this kind of
popular culture

1900
01:30:40,391 --> 01:30:43,220
has built a
constituency for torture

1901
01:30:43,263 --> 01:30:44,961
which allows the
Bush White House

1902
01:30:45,004 --> 01:30:47,703
to get away with the
way it twists

1903
01:30:47,746 --> 01:30:51,968
laws and treaties and doesn't
spark popular outrage.

1904
01:30:53,273 --> 01:30:55,450
On a
conservative radio show

1905
01:30:55,493 --> 01:30:57,843
Vice President Dick Cheney
openly defended

1906
01:30:57,887 --> 01:30:59,410
the practice of waterboarding.

1907
01:31:00,629 --> 01:31:02,326
Would you
agree a drunk in water

1908
01:31:02,369 --> 01:31:04,284
is a no-brainer if it
can save lives?

1909
01:31:04,328 --> 01:31:07,984
Well, it's a
no-brainer for me

1910
01:31:08,027 --> 01:31:09,551
but for a while there I
was criticized

1911
01:31:09,594 --> 01:31:11,596
as being the Vice
President for torture.

1912
01:31:13,685 --> 01:31:15,774
We do not condone torture.

1913
01:31:15,818 --> 01:31:18,168
We do not torture, footnote,

1914
01:31:18,211 --> 01:31:20,039
as we define torture,
which means exactly

1915
01:31:20,083 --> 01:31:22,128
what we wish it to mean
and nothing else.

1916
01:31:23,565 --> 01:31:27,090
In the elections of 2006,
the Bush Administration

1917
01:31:27,133 --> 01:31:29,266
openly campaigned for
harsh techniques

1918
01:31:29,309 --> 01:31:31,703
the rest of the world
defined as torture.

1919
01:31:32,835 --> 01:31:34,489
Bush and Cheney
played on the fears

1920
01:31:34,532 --> 01:31:37,056
of voters and politicians,
if Congress

1921
01:31:37,100 --> 01:31:38,797
didn't give them the power to do

1922
01:31:38,841 --> 01:31:42,453
whatever was necessary, how
could Americans be safe?

1923
01:31:43,585 --> 01:31:44,934
In addition to the
terrorists held

1924
01:31:44,977 --> 01:31:47,980
at Guantanamo, a small
number of suspected

1925
01:31:48,024 --> 01:31:49,678
terrorist leaders and
operatives captured

1926
01:31:49,721 --> 01:31:51,984
during the war have
been held and questioned

1927
01:31:52,028 --> 01:31:56,989
outside the United States
in a separate program

1928
01:31:57,033 --> 01:31:59,470
operated by the Central
Intelligence Agency.

1929
01:32:01,603 --> 01:32:04,214
Some ask why are you
acknowledging this program now?

1930
01:32:05,607 --> 01:32:07,696
Some believe our military
and intelligence

1931
01:32:07,739 --> 01:32:10,437
personnel involved in
capturing and questioning

1932
01:32:10,481 --> 01:32:13,266
terrorists could now be at risk

1933
01:32:13,310 --> 01:32:16,531
of prosecution under the
War Crimes Act

1934
01:32:16,574 --> 01:32:18,707
simply for doing their
jobs in a thorough

1935
01:32:18,750 --> 01:32:22,580
and professional way,
this is unacceptable.

1936
01:32:23,973 --> 01:32:25,104
The
President was forced

1937
01:32:25,148 --> 01:32:27,629
to disclose his
secret CIA program

1938
01:32:27,672 --> 01:32:29,892
when the Supreme Court
acted to limit

1939
01:32:29,935 --> 01:32:32,634
his war time powers,
in the historic

1940
01:32:32,677 --> 01:32:34,810
Handam Decision, the court ruled

1941
01:32:34,853 --> 01:32:37,029
that interrogations and
trials of terrorists

1942
01:32:37,073 --> 01:32:40,903
would be governed by
the Geneva Conventions.

1943
01:32:40,946 --> 01:32:43,558
This debate is
occurring because of

1944
01:32:43,601 --> 01:32:45,255
the Supreme Court's
ruling that said

1945
01:32:45,298 --> 01:32:48,258
that we must conduct
ourselves under

1946
01:32:48,301 --> 01:32:50,869
the Common Article 3 of
the Geneva Convention.

1947
01:32:52,741 --> 01:32:54,612
And that Common Article 3 says

1948
01:32:54,656 --> 01:32:57,659
that there will be no
outrages upon human dignity.

1949
01:33:00,313 --> 01:33:03,752
It's very vague, what
does that mean?

1950
01:33:09,409 --> 01:33:11,324
Do you believe that the
use of testimony

1951
01:33:11,368 --> 01:33:13,631
which is obtained
through techniques

1952
01:33:13,675 --> 01:33:16,634
such as waterboarding,
stress positions

1953
01:33:16,678 --> 01:33:18,636
intimidating use of
military dogs,

1954
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,943
sleep deprivation,
sensory deprivation,

1955
01:33:20,986 --> 01:33:22,814
forced nudity would
be consistent

1956
01:33:22,858 --> 01:33:24,555
with Common Article 3?

1957
01:33:25,991 --> 01:33:27,471
Well sir, I think
most importantly

1958
01:33:27,514 --> 01:33:29,212
I can't imagine that
such testimony

1959
01:33:29,255 --> 01:33:31,867
- would be reliable.
- Mr. Attorney General

1960
01:33:31,910 --> 01:33:33,303
do you believe that
statements obtained

1961
01:33:33,346 --> 01:33:35,697
through illegal,
inhumane treatment

1962
01:33:35,740 --> 01:33:36,785
should be admissible?

1963
01:33:50,015 --> 01:33:51,015
Senator, I.

1964
01:33:54,498 --> 01:33:59,155
Well, again, I'll say this,
the concern

1965
01:33:59,198 --> 01:34:02,375
that I would have about
such a prohibition

1966
01:34:02,419 --> 01:34:05,117
is what does it mean how
you define it?

1967
01:34:05,161 --> 01:34:07,424
And who define it?

1968
01:34:07,467 --> 01:34:08,947
The Bush
Administration introduced

1969
01:34:08,991 --> 01:34:11,471
a new law that would
elude the restrictions

1970
01:34:11,515 --> 01:34:12,515
of the Supreme Court.

1971
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,041
In a legal sense, I
think they wanted

1972
01:34:16,085 --> 01:34:18,348
to discard the Constitution
and they wanted

1973
01:34:18,391 --> 01:34:20,480
to write a new one, but
you can't do that

1974
01:34:20,524 --> 01:34:21,830
so what you do is
you throw a new

1975
01:34:21,873 --> 01:34:23,832
interpretation on the old
one and the new

1976
01:34:23,875 --> 01:34:26,573
interpretation is the
Executive in War Time

1977
01:34:26,617 --> 01:34:30,316
and perhaps this war is
gonna last forever

1978
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:31,360
is all powerful.

1979
01:34:33,363 --> 01:34:34,669
Congress
gave the President

1980
01:34:34,712 --> 01:34:37,541
most of what he wanted,
he would agree

1981
01:34:37,584 --> 01:34:39,717
to abide by the
Geneva Conventions

1982
01:34:39,761 --> 01:34:41,719
so long as he could
define their meaning

1983
01:34:41,763 --> 01:34:42,763
and application.

1984
01:34:44,417 --> 01:34:46,768
A few detainees at
Guantanamo might be

1985
01:34:46,811 --> 01:34:49,553
put on trial, but the rest
would no longer

1986
01:34:49,596 --> 01:34:52,948
have access to habeas
corpus, the fundamental

1987
01:34:52,991 --> 01:34:55,341
legal right to challenge
their detention.

1988
01:34:58,518 --> 01:35:00,433
Planning a run for President,

1989
01:35:00,477 --> 01:35:02,958
even Senator McCain
voted for the Bill.

1990
01:35:03,001 --> 01:35:04,960
Soon after the Bush
Administration threatened

1991
01:35:05,003 --> 01:35:07,484
to discredit him with
conservative voters.

1992
01:35:09,355 --> 01:35:11,444
Buried deep inside
this legislation

1993
01:35:11,488 --> 01:35:14,709
is a provision that will
pardon President Bush

1994
01:35:14,752 --> 01:35:16,754
and all the members of
his Administration

1995
01:35:16,798 --> 01:35:19,322
of any possible crimes
connected with

1996
01:35:19,365 --> 01:35:21,585
the torture and
mistreatment of detainees

1997
01:35:21,628 --> 01:35:25,458
dated all the way back
to September 11th, 2001

1998
01:35:25,502 --> 01:35:27,373
at least President Nixon
had Gerald Ford

1999
01:35:27,417 --> 01:35:28,766
to do his dirty work,
President Bush

2000
01:35:28,810 --> 01:35:30,768
is trying to pardon himself.

2001
01:35:32,814 --> 01:35:34,816
The pardon
did not extend

2002
01:35:34,859 --> 01:35:37,601
to front line soldiers.

2003
01:35:37,644 --> 01:35:40,691
The trial was a very
confusing time for me

2004
01:35:40,735 --> 01:35:41,866
because I've never been
through trial before

2005
01:35:41,910 --> 01:35:43,868
I didn't know what was
really going on.

2006
01:35:45,870 --> 01:35:47,872
I kinda just understood
that I was facing

2007
01:35:47,916 --> 01:35:49,265
a lot of time in jail,
that's the only

2008
01:35:49,308 --> 01:35:51,571
thing I really understood
about the whole thing.

2009
01:35:54,444 --> 01:35:58,361
Well I was sent to jail,
to a military

2010
01:35:58,404 --> 01:36:02,365
correctional facility,
I have lost

2011
01:36:02,408 --> 01:36:07,109
my full time job, I have
a bad conduct discharge

2012
01:36:07,152 --> 01:36:11,156
which has hindered me in
getting a new job

2013
01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:12,244
in the same field.

2014
01:36:14,594 --> 01:36:19,599
I have financially,
it's just devastated me.

2015
01:36:21,036 --> 01:36:22,951
I'm just glad it's over,
that's it.

2016
01:36:22,994 --> 01:36:24,300
I can get on with my life.

2017
01:36:28,347 --> 01:36:31,829
I had to plead
guilty to assault

2018
01:36:31,873 --> 01:36:35,528
and two counts of
dereliction of duty

2019
01:36:35,572 --> 01:36:37,704
in exchange, they'd
say that I could

2020
01:36:37,748 --> 01:36:40,403
go to jail for no more
than four months.

2021
01:36:41,926 --> 01:36:43,275
Rather than spend the
money that was

2022
01:36:43,319 --> 01:36:45,277
being spent for that trial,
I think

2023
01:36:45,321 --> 01:36:46,496
it could have been better spent

2024
01:36:46,539 --> 01:36:48,324
in working on Army
doctrine to make sure

2025
01:36:48,367 --> 01:36:50,630
that other people go into battle

2026
01:36:50,674 --> 01:36:54,504
properly equipped, properly led,

2027
01:36:54,547 --> 01:36:56,288
and with a full
understanding as to what

2028
01:36:56,332 --> 01:36:58,725
their new rules and
responsibilities are.

2029
01:36:58,769 --> 01:37:03,078
When a detainee is abused

2030
01:37:03,121 --> 01:37:06,385
or a detainee claims abuse,
they want

2031
01:37:06,429 --> 01:37:08,213
somebody to take the fall for it

2032
01:37:08,257 --> 01:37:09,388
and it's not gonna be the person

2033
01:37:09,432 --> 01:37:11,695
with Eagles or Stars on
their shoulder.

2034
01:37:13,653 --> 01:37:15,481
No officer
was ever convicted

2035
01:37:15,525 --> 01:37:16,918
in the Dilawar case.

2036
01:37:18,354 --> 01:37:20,573
Following her service
at Abu Ghraib,

2037
01:37:20,617 --> 01:37:23,315
Captain Carolyn Wood wast
given a staff position

2038
01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:25,883
at the Army Interrogation School

2039
01:37:25,927 --> 01:37:28,538
in Fort Huachuca, Arizona.

2040
01:37:28,581 --> 01:37:31,671
What does that
reflect in terms of

2041
01:37:31,715 --> 01:37:34,761
senior leadership's intentions?

2042
01:37:34,805 --> 01:37:38,853
Not to eradicate the abuse,
but to

2043
01:37:38,896 --> 01:37:40,855
perpetuate the abuse.

2044
01:37:41,986 --> 01:37:43,422
I think the probability exists

2045
01:37:43,466 --> 01:37:44,771
that there will be other
terrorist attacks

2046
01:37:44,815 --> 01:37:47,731
and more Americans will
die and the argument

2047
01:37:47,774 --> 01:37:49,776
that we have to apply
abuse to detainees

2048
01:37:49,820 --> 01:37:51,691
in order to protect
American lives

2049
01:37:51,735 --> 01:37:54,346
I find to be violative
of our deepest values

2050
01:37:54,390 --> 01:37:57,001
and to the very safety
of our country.

2051
01:37:58,089 --> 01:37:59,874
We fight not only to
protect lives,

2052
01:37:59,917 --> 01:38:01,658
we fight to protect
our principles.

2053
01:38:02,833 --> 01:38:04,095
If you say
over the course

2054
01:38:04,139 --> 01:38:07,577
of Afghanistan, Gitmo
and Iraq we've detained

2055
01:38:07,620 --> 01:38:10,014
50,000 people, I'd
say less than 1%

2056
01:38:10,058 --> 01:38:12,930
were terrorists.

2057
01:38:18,849 --> 01:38:20,807
Were some of them insurgents?

2058
01:38:20,851 --> 01:38:23,723
Probably, were almost
all of em in Iraq

2059
01:38:23,767 --> 01:38:25,421
in particular gonna
become insurgents

2060
01:38:25,464 --> 01:38:28,293
after their treatment,
yes.

2061
01:38:28,337 --> 01:38:30,948
I was kidnapped,
abducted, falsely imprisoned

2062
01:38:30,992 --> 01:38:33,777
tortured and threatened
with further torture

2063
01:38:33,820 --> 01:38:35,997
without charge, without trial.

2064
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:41,089
Even many soldiers had
said to me afterwards

2065
01:38:41,132 --> 01:38:43,091
was that hell, if you
weren't a terrorist

2066
01:38:43,134 --> 01:38:44,962
when you came in here,
by the time

2067
01:38:45,006 --> 01:38:46,268
you leave, I'm sure you would be

2068
01:38:46,311 --> 01:38:47,878
because of the way
you've been treated.

2069
01:38:49,401 --> 01:38:52,535
We think there's a certain

2070
01:38:52,578 --> 01:38:56,626
level of prejudice that
this religion

2071
01:38:56,669 --> 01:38:59,890
and the people who
have hijacked it

2072
01:38:59,934 --> 01:39:03,067
have such a disregard for life

2073
01:39:03,111 --> 01:39:05,417
that we turn around and
say if they think

2074
01:39:05,461 --> 01:39:09,204
so very little of life,
and clearly 9/11

2075
01:39:09,247 --> 01:39:14,252
exemplified that, screw
them, anything goes.

2076
01:40:09,090 --> 01:40:12,136
It's not
surprising that at the end

2077
01:40:12,180 --> 01:40:16,923
of all this, Dilawar the
victim was really lost.

2078
01:40:16,967 --> 01:40:19,013
I mean Dilawar was
almost invisible

2079
01:40:19,056 --> 01:40:21,145
in the trials, I mean you never

2080
01:40:21,189 --> 01:40:24,061
saw pictures of him,
nobody ever mentioned

2081
01:40:24,105 --> 01:40:26,368
this man's wife and
child who were left

2082
01:40:26,411 --> 01:40:28,065
without a husband and father.

2083
01:40:29,414 --> 01:40:31,329
He was not part of the
picture at all.

2084
01:40:48,346 --> 01:40:50,044
There's a lot
of other people out there

2085
01:40:50,087 --> 01:40:53,395
who are gonna run
into this system

2086
01:40:53,438 --> 01:40:57,660
unless it's fixed and
you only need one

2087
01:40:57,703 --> 01:41:01,055
to sort of remind yourself
of what it's capable of.

2088
01:41:23,686 --> 01:41:25,122
American
values are premised

2089
01:41:25,166 --> 01:41:27,298
upon the notion of human dignity

2090
01:41:27,342 --> 01:41:28,865
and the sanctity of
the individual.

2091
01:41:29,953 --> 01:41:32,434
To allow for cruelty
to be applied

2092
01:41:32,477 --> 01:41:35,611
as a matter of official
policy is to say

2093
01:41:35,654 --> 01:41:38,048
that our forefathers were wrong

2094
01:41:38,092 --> 01:41:39,876
about this inalienable rights.

2095
01:41:42,313 --> 01:41:44,054
Americans obviously
wanna believe

2096
01:41:44,098 --> 01:41:46,274
that we're somehow
more moral than

2097
01:41:46,317 --> 01:41:47,840
the rest of the world,
that for some reason

2098
01:41:47,884 --> 01:41:50,191
we have a real strong
desire to feel that way

2099
01:41:50,234 --> 01:41:52,193
and I think that's eroding,
I don't really know

2100
01:41:52,236 --> 01:41:54,282
what effect that's
gonna have on us

2101
01:41:55,805 --> 01:41:57,415
and I think a lot of
people have just decided

2102
01:41:57,459 --> 01:42:00,375
well, you know, it's
different now.

2103
01:42:00,418 --> 01:42:04,248
After 9/11, we can't
be good anymore

2104
01:42:04,292 --> 01:42:07,033
we have to get tough
and so we'll have

2105
01:42:07,077 --> 01:42:09,601
to see what that does to us.

2106
01:42:09,645 --> 01:42:11,995
- What do you think?
- I think that's bullshit,

2107
01:42:12,038 --> 01:42:14,867
frankly, I mean I think
that we still need

2108
01:42:14,911 --> 01:42:18,654
to try and be as good
as we can be.

2109
01:42:33,495 --> 01:42:35,801
I find it utterly
inconceivable

2110
01:42:35,845 --> 01:42:38,630
that the highest officials,
Rumsfeld,

2111
01:42:38,674 --> 01:42:43,244
Bush and Cheney would not
only countenance torture

2112
01:42:43,287 --> 01:42:45,289
but would actually
advocate it period

2113
01:42:46,986 --> 01:42:48,597
is has really destroyed my faith

2114
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:51,774
in the American Government
because through

2115
01:42:51,817 --> 01:42:54,211
World War II and the Korean War

2116
01:42:54,255 --> 01:42:57,954
where I also served, we
had the sense that

2117
01:42:57,997 --> 01:43:00,217
we were on the side of
the good guys.

2118
01:43:00,261 --> 01:43:02,219
You would always get justice in

2119
01:43:02,263 --> 01:43:04,178
the United States of America

2120
01:43:04,221 --> 01:43:06,745
you would get, people
would get decent treatment

2121
01:43:06,789 --> 01:43:09,661
that there was a rule of law,
we never

2122
01:43:09,705 --> 01:43:12,577
forgot that, that
behind the facade

2123
01:43:12,621 --> 01:43:16,538
of wartime hatreds,
there was a central

2124
01:43:16,581 --> 01:43:19,193
rule of law which
people abided by.

2125
01:43:21,412 --> 01:43:22,935
It was something we believed,

2126
01:43:22,979 --> 01:43:26,025
it was what made
America different.