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REPORTER:
The investigators are now filing in
and the reporters are getting ready
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00:00:39,708 --> 00:00:42,210
to cover this news conference.
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00:00:47,132 --> 00:00:50,218
Many parents in the community
will be breathing a sigh of relief
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00:00:50,427 --> 00:00:54,097
if this indeed is the break
that police have been waiting for.
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00:00:56,141 --> 00:00:59,561
Chief Inspector Gary Gitchell
is about to begin,
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00:00:59,769 --> 00:01:01,896
and he's also bringing in
some photographs.
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00:01:02,063 --> 00:01:04,941
Obviously these will probably be
photographs of the suspects.
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00:01:05,108 --> 00:01:09,904
Of course, suspects unofficially
at this point, although many believe
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00:01:10,071 --> 00:01:14,576
in this triple murder
of the three 8-year-old boys.
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00:01:14,784 --> 00:01:21,541
Arrested at 2:44 p.m., Thursday,
June the 3rd, 1993.
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00:01:22,333 --> 00:01:25,503
Jessie Lloyd Misskelley.
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00:01:26,588 --> 00:01:30,341
Jessie Misskelley is 17 years of age.
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00:01:30,550 --> 00:01:36,723
Charles Jason Baldwin.
He is 16 years of age.
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00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,687
Michael Wayne Echols.
Mr. Echols is 18 years of age.
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00:01:42,896 --> 00:01:46,524
He is charged with three counts
of capital murder.
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00:01:46,733 --> 00:01:48,485
[CROWD CLAMORING]
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00:01:48,651 --> 00:01:50,904
REPORTER:
Were you surprised when
these guys were arrested?
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00:01:51,070 --> 00:01:52,530
I was surprised about Jason
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00:01:52,697 --> 00:01:54,949
because he's, like, the quiet one
of them all.
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00:01:55,158 --> 00:01:59,204
But I wasn't surprised about
Jessie Misskelley and Damien Echols,
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00:01:59,412 --> 00:02:02,081
because I just expected it out of them
sooner or later.
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00:02:02,248 --> 00:02:03,249
Killer!
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00:02:03,416 --> 00:02:05,418
[CROWD SHOUTING
INDISTINCTLY]
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00:02:17,013 --> 00:02:19,015
[Hr]
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00:02:22,936 --> 00:02:25,480
PAM:
When the police were
asking for clothing
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00:02:25,688 --> 00:02:29,859
so they could give it to the dogs
to pick up scent,
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00:02:30,068 --> 00:02:34,489
the bandana here was the only thing
that I had in my household
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00:02:34,656 --> 00:02:39,869
that had Stevie's scent on it.
I've never washed it.
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00:02:40,078 --> 00:02:44,916
When I get the need to just want
to feel him again, um,
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00:02:45,124 --> 00:02:46,709
I'll grab it and I'll hug it,
31
00:02:46,876 --> 00:02:50,672
and I'm so thankful
I feel an embrace back.
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00:02:56,845 --> 00:03:00,348
I was walking the route
to take Stevie to school,
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00:03:00,557 --> 00:03:03,226
and I checked him out,
I believe, at 2:30.
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00:03:03,434 --> 00:03:07,730
Stevie told me a hundred times,
probably a thousand, on the way home:
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00:03:07,939 --> 00:03:12,151
"I love you, mama." "I love you too, son."
And it was just constant.
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00:03:13,403 --> 00:03:17,282
We got home, first thing I asked him,
"Do you have any homework?"
37
00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:19,701
He said, "I did, but I did it in school."
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00:03:19,868 --> 00:03:23,037
And he hung his homework
on the refrigerator.
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00:03:24,289 --> 00:03:26,040
And Michael Moore came up,
40
00:03:26,249 --> 00:03:30,086
and they started asking,
could Stevie go to Michael's house?
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00:03:30,295 --> 00:03:33,882
And I said, "No, I'm getting ready
for work, I'm cooking supper."
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00:03:34,048 --> 00:03:35,758
Both of them,
you know, begging:
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00:03:35,925 --> 00:03:38,928
"Please, please, please,
we'll be back," and all that.
44
00:03:39,929 --> 00:03:44,142
I gave in and I said, "Okay." I said,
"But, boy, you better be home by 4:30.
45
00:03:44,309 --> 00:03:48,354
If you're not, I'm gonna ground you
for two weeks from that bike."
46
00:03:50,481 --> 00:03:54,402
I'm gonna say Christopher
probably arrived at the house
47
00:03:54,611 --> 00:04:00,033
around 3:35 maybe,
and he asked me if Stevie was there.
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00:04:00,992 --> 00:04:05,997
I told him, I said,
"I'm surprised you didn't run into him
because him and Michael just left."
49
00:04:06,164 --> 00:04:10,126
He left and he was gonna go
searching for Stevie and Michael.
50
00:04:10,501 --> 00:04:15,298
Uh, well, around 4:45, Stevie had--
Still hadn't arrived.
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00:04:17,216 --> 00:04:22,096
Terry came in. I told Terry,
"Well, let's go ahead and leave."
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00:04:22,263 --> 00:04:24,057
We went ahead,
and he took me to work.
53
00:04:28,978 --> 00:04:31,814
My night at work was a normal night.
54
00:04:33,399 --> 00:04:36,527
Terry walked in, to the phone,
didn't say hi, bye, nothing.
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00:04:36,736 --> 00:04:38,112
He just walked to the phone,
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00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,449
and I took two pieces of candy
to the car and Amanda was there,
57
00:04:41,616 --> 00:04:46,871
and I asked her, "Where's Bubba?"
And she said, "Mama, we can't find him."
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00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,460
And I thought the worst,
that he was dead.
59
00:05:01,052 --> 00:05:04,597
I got out of the car, went through
this door, got out of my uniform,
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00:05:04,806 --> 00:05:07,266
put sweats on and put a T-shirt on.
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00:05:07,433 --> 00:05:11,187
Because all I was trying to focus on
is where's Stevie, where's he at,
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00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:14,440
and I gotta get out there,
and I gotta start searching.
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00:05:14,607 --> 00:05:16,609
[THUNDER RUMBLING]
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00:05:19,529 --> 00:05:22,782
BYERS: Last time we saw him
was about 6:30 yesterday evening.
65
00:05:22,949 --> 00:05:24,659
REPORTER:
What's--? Give me your name.
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00:05:24,826 --> 00:05:26,160
My name is Mark Byers.
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00:05:26,369 --> 00:05:28,788
Okay. Has your son--?
Has this ever happened before?
68
00:05:28,955 --> 00:05:30,999
None of the boys have ever
gone off anywhere.
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00:05:31,165 --> 00:05:36,212
None of the three have ever been
missing or taken off ever before.
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00:05:36,379 --> 00:05:38,756
What's going through your mind
as a parent?
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00:05:38,965 --> 00:05:41,759
I'm scared to death.
That's, you know, plain and simple.
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00:05:41,926 --> 00:05:44,971
I'm scared for the safety
and welfare of all three boys.
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00:05:47,473 --> 00:05:51,102
JONES:
That particular day, I'd called
the West Memphis P.D.
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00:05:51,310 --> 00:05:53,688
The dispatcher Lucy
answered the phone.
75
00:05:53,855 --> 00:05:57,817
She said, "We've had three children
missing since last night."
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00:05:59,193 --> 00:06:03,197
I said, "Well, you know,
I'm gonna go help too."
77
00:06:06,034 --> 00:06:07,368
I'm not seeing anything.
78
00:06:07,577 --> 00:06:10,371
Not seeing no kids running around
on bicycles or nothing.
79
00:06:11,706 --> 00:06:13,916
And then I thought
about Robin Hood Trails
80
00:06:14,125 --> 00:06:16,294
as I was driving down Goodwyn,
and I said:
81
00:06:16,502 --> 00:06:21,049
"Well I'll-- I'm gonna go over there,
just get out and walk around."
82
00:06:21,632 --> 00:06:26,637
I was looking around, you know,
just physically looking out and about.
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00:06:26,846 --> 00:06:30,266
And then I looked
into the small ditch.
84
00:06:30,475 --> 00:06:32,810
That's where I saw the tennis shoe at.
85
00:06:33,019 --> 00:06:34,979
I called
West Memphis Police Department
86
00:06:35,188 --> 00:06:37,356
to have Mike Allen
meet me out here.
87
00:06:37,565 --> 00:06:41,778
And so I showed him the area
of the tennis shoe.
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00:06:41,986 --> 00:06:46,908
And Mike had said
he was going to take it out.
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00:06:47,617 --> 00:06:49,368
Mike fell into the water.
90
00:06:50,328 --> 00:06:52,747
I was looking down on him like this.
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00:06:52,914 --> 00:06:54,540
He looked up and I said, "What?"
92
00:06:54,749 --> 00:06:58,419
And he said, "it feels like my leg
is caught on something.
93
00:06:58,586 --> 00:07:00,838
Like a log or something."
94
00:07:04,175 --> 00:07:07,261
And Mike fell backwards,
and when he fell backwards,
95
00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:09,764
his leg came up...
96
00:07:12,475 --> 00:07:16,020
and one of the little bodies
was on his leg.
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00:07:27,865 --> 00:07:29,992
[INAUDIBLE DIALOGUE]
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00:07:33,371 --> 00:07:36,958
PAM:
From the moment they told me
Stevie was dead,
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00:07:38,668 --> 00:07:42,296
I really lost it,
lost all touch with reality.
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00:07:46,092 --> 00:07:48,094
[PAM SHRIEKING AND SOBBING]
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00:07:49,804 --> 00:07:51,806
[PEOPLE CHATTERING]
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00:07:54,725 --> 00:07:56,185
[PAM SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY]
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00:07:56,352 --> 00:07:58,938
NEWSCASTER:
Pam Hobbs' son, Steve,
and two of his friends
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00:07:59,147 --> 00:08:02,066
were found murdered
Thursday before last.
105
00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:10,241
FOGLEMAN:
It's more a part of my life
than I would like it to be.
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00:08:10,449 --> 00:08:12,535
Because frankly I'd like to be able
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00:08:12,702 --> 00:08:18,416
to not have those three 8-year-old boys'
pictures in my mind.
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00:08:20,793 --> 00:08:22,920
DRIVER:
What you found, you found three boys
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00:08:23,129 --> 00:08:26,215
that had been hog-tied
and thrown in the water.
110
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,262
It appeared
that they had been sexually mutilated.
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00:08:33,347 --> 00:08:37,602
That appears to be cult-related.
The West Memphis Police Department
112
00:08:37,768 --> 00:08:42,982
a lot of times would ask me about
occult things as though I were the guru.
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00:08:43,149 --> 00:08:47,236
I probably was because there wasn't
anybody else that was doing it.
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00:08:48,946 --> 00:08:51,699
This program is designed to help
law enforcement officers
115
00:08:51,866 --> 00:08:54,577
better understand Satanic cults.
116
00:08:54,744 --> 00:08:59,332
I got some books and I spoke to police
organizations around the country
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00:08:59,498 --> 00:09:01,417
that had some experience with it.
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00:09:01,626 --> 00:09:04,128
Okay, we have a rope here.
If you look at it closely--
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00:09:04,337 --> 00:09:06,589
I don't know
if the camera can pick this up.
120
00:09:06,797 --> 00:09:09,217
--But there's blood on this noose.
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00:09:09,425 --> 00:09:15,097
The police department asked me
to put together a list of people
122
00:09:15,306 --> 00:09:19,644
that we had on probation that might
be involved in that type of activity.
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00:09:19,852 --> 00:09:22,688
Well, the guy that I knew
that was involved the most in it
124
00:09:22,897 --> 00:09:24,232
was Damien Echols.
125
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,608
[Hr]
126
00:09:25,775 --> 00:09:30,279
The two guys he ran with,
Jessie and Jason...
127
00:09:31,489 --> 00:09:33,616
Jessie would fight.
128
00:09:33,824 --> 00:09:37,787
Jason was not very aggressive,
in that respect,
129
00:09:38,663 --> 00:09:42,124
but I believe he would do anything
that Damien asked him to do.
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00:09:45,169 --> 00:09:48,547
REPORTER:
Eight months have passed
since the three boys were killed.
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00:09:48,756 --> 00:09:52,635
Cameras are in place
and miles of cable laid
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00:09:52,843 --> 00:09:57,098
in preparation for this
highly publicized murder trial.
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00:10:00,017 --> 00:10:04,021
DRIVER:
I guess they found that those three
were the most likely to have done it.
134
00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:06,065
Move back.
135
00:10:06,274 --> 00:10:10,027
DRIVER:
And then, of course, they had
the confession from Jessie.
136
00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:13,239
REPORTER:
The most compelling evidence yet
was introduced in open court.
137
00:10:13,406 --> 00:10:15,866
Misskelley's taped confession
made to police.
138
00:10:16,033 --> 00:10:20,288
JESSIE [ON RECORDING]:
I saw Damien hit this one--
Hit this one boy real bad.
139
00:10:20,454 --> 00:10:23,165
Then he start screwing him and stuff.
140
00:10:23,374 --> 00:10:27,169
Jason turned around
and hit Steve Branch
141
00:10:27,378 --> 00:10:29,046
and started doing the same thing.
142
00:10:29,255 --> 00:10:31,966
Michael Moore took off running,
so I chased him
143
00:10:32,174 --> 00:10:35,928
and grabbed him and held him
until they got there, and then I left.
144
00:10:36,137 --> 00:10:38,014
If he does not run
through the woods
145
00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:42,476
and chase him down and bring
him back, Michael Moore lives.
146
00:10:42,935 --> 00:10:46,272
FOGLEMAN:
Did Damien invite you
to some meeting?
147
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,027
He did. A cult, Satanic meeting.
FOGLEMAN: Okay.
148
00:10:51,235 --> 00:10:54,405
GITCHELL [ON RECORDING]:
Tell me some of the things y'all do,
being in this cult.
149
00:10:54,613 --> 00:10:57,283
JESSE:
We go out, kill dogs and stuff.
150
00:10:57,491 --> 00:11:00,411
Some of my friends had said
they saw a hog's head out here,
151
00:11:00,619 --> 00:11:03,622
and they saw the body
in a plastic bag.
152
00:11:04,081 --> 00:11:06,584
REPORTER:
The state is now trying to prove
motive in this case,
153
00:11:06,751 --> 00:11:09,962
calling this a cult-related killing.
Whether that will be enough
154
00:11:10,129 --> 00:11:13,632
to sway the women and men sitting
on this jury remains to be seen.
155
00:11:15,426 --> 00:11:17,678
REPORTER 1:
Damien, any comment
about the charges?
156
00:11:17,887 --> 00:11:18,929
REPORTER 2:
Did you do it?
157
00:11:19,138 --> 00:11:23,809
FRENCH:
I got a letter in the mail telling me
that I had summons to be on the jury.
158
00:11:23,976 --> 00:11:27,855
And I didn't want to be on there
in the beginning.
159
00:11:28,022 --> 00:11:30,107
But I didn't know how to get out of it.
160
00:11:30,274 --> 00:11:34,153
Is it your opinion
and do you want to tell this jury
161
00:11:34,362 --> 00:11:39,075
that these crimes were motivated
by occult beliefs?
162
00:11:39,283 --> 00:11:41,118
Yes.
163
00:11:42,495 --> 00:11:45,039
Blood is the life force.
164
00:11:45,247 --> 00:11:50,127
They prefer to have a child
that is young.
165
00:11:50,336 --> 00:11:55,383
There's evidence of genital mutilation,
and the red is the shaft of the penis.
166
00:11:55,591 --> 00:11:58,386
CARSON:
Jason told me how he
dismembered the kid.
167
00:11:58,594 --> 00:12:01,347
He sucked the blood from the penis
and the scrotum
168
00:12:01,555 --> 00:12:03,557
and put the balls in his mouth.
169
00:12:03,849 --> 00:12:08,604
You take this knife and drag it,
and it rips and tears.
170
00:12:08,813 --> 00:12:12,191
The knife is being twisted
and the victim is moving.
171
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,611
Just like in the picture.
172
00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:21,283
DRIVER:
Damien, he had a book
that he wrote in. It was pretty dark.
173
00:12:21,492 --> 00:12:25,371
A lot of death, a lot of--
He talked about dead children.
174
00:12:25,579 --> 00:12:29,625
FOGLEMAN:
"Thirsty for blood
and the terror of mortal men.
175
00:12:30,668 --> 00:12:33,546
Look favorably on my sacrifice."
176
00:12:34,463 --> 00:12:36,966
FRENCH:
I think they went out in the woods.
177
00:12:37,133 --> 00:12:39,260
They may not have been meaning
to kill them.
178
00:12:39,468 --> 00:12:42,638
And then it just got out of control.
179
00:12:42,847 --> 00:12:46,225
And Damien,
I think he was the mastermind
180
00:12:46,434 --> 00:12:50,396
over Jason and Misskelley.
181
00:12:50,604 --> 00:12:54,483
I do believe that. I do.
182
00:12:54,692 --> 00:12:58,446
You begin to see inside
Damien Echols.
183
00:12:59,071 --> 00:13:02,700
And you look inside there
and there's not a soul in there.
184
00:13:04,452 --> 00:13:06,954
I know he's guilty, you know.
185
00:13:07,121 --> 00:13:09,457
I can't imagine the fear going
through them boys
186
00:13:09,623 --> 00:13:12,376
watching one another get killed.
Knowing they was next.
187
00:13:12,543 --> 00:13:14,128
I can't believe the heinous crime.
188
00:13:14,336 --> 00:13:17,214
"We, the jury, find Damien Echols guilty
of capital murder
189
00:13:17,381 --> 00:13:18,924
in the death of Stevie Branch.
190
00:13:19,133 --> 00:13:21,886
Guilty of capital murder
in the death of Chris Byers.
191
00:13:22,052 --> 00:13:24,722
Guilty of capital murder
in the death of Michael Moore."
192
00:13:24,930 --> 00:13:29,977
A message has to be sent.
You can't be involved in murder
193
00:13:30,186 --> 00:13:32,605
and expect to get away with it.
194
00:13:32,771 --> 00:13:36,317
REPORTER:
Misskelley was sentenced to life in prison
for the murder of Michael Moore.
195
00:13:36,525 --> 00:13:39,695
And 40 years for the murders
of Steven Branch and Christopher Byers.
196
00:13:39,862 --> 00:13:42,698
"We have determined that
Jason Baldwin shall be sentenced
197
00:13:42,865 --> 00:13:44,700
to life imprisonment without parole."
198
00:13:44,909 --> 00:13:47,828
If I'd been on the jury,
I sure would have found them guilty.
199
00:13:47,995 --> 00:13:52,541
If there is ever an appropriate case
for the death penalty in Arkansas,
200
00:13:52,708 --> 00:13:55,836
you've got it in your hands now.
That they burn in hell.
201
00:13:56,003 --> 00:14:00,174
They wanna worship the devil,
let them meet him. I hope they do soon.
202
00:14:00,341 --> 00:14:02,718
BURNETT:
"We the jury have determined
that Damien Echols
203
00:14:02,885 --> 00:14:05,804
shall be sentenced to death
by lethal injection."
204
00:14:06,722 --> 00:14:10,684
I was kind of, I guess, happy,
if I could--
205
00:14:10,893 --> 00:14:15,689
Might say that word, that everybody else
was as angry at them as I was.
206
00:14:15,898 --> 00:14:17,733
Now my boy can play
207
00:14:17,942 --> 00:14:21,028
and go on about his life in heaven
the way it is,
208
00:14:21,237 --> 00:14:23,197
and I'll go on with mine
the best I can.
209
00:14:24,698 --> 00:14:26,408
And I'm glad it's over.
210
00:14:26,617 --> 00:14:30,246
It's like the community felt
like they were relieved
211
00:14:30,454 --> 00:14:32,331
that somebody was behind bars
212
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:38,671
and that they didn't have to be quite
as scared as they were. They were guilty.
213
00:14:46,929 --> 00:14:50,516
OPERATOR [OVER PHONE]:
This call originates from
an Arkansas correctional facility.
214
00:14:50,683 --> 00:14:53,143
I have a prepaid call from:
215
00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:56,146
DAMIEN: Damien.
OPERATOR: An inmate at Varner Unit.
216
00:14:56,355 --> 00:14:58,023
If you wish to accept-- Thank you.
217
00:14:58,857 --> 00:15:02,319
LORRI:
Damien and I probably have
5000 letters
218
00:15:02,486 --> 00:15:06,865
that we've written to each other
over the past 15-- Fourteen, 15 years.
219
00:15:07,783 --> 00:15:10,077
You know, it's the way
we got to know each other.
220
00:15:10,286 --> 00:15:13,205
I saw the film Paradise Lost,
which is a documentary
221
00:15:13,414 --> 00:15:15,874
that was made about the original trial.
222
00:15:16,083 --> 00:15:18,085
I was living in New York City
at the time
223
00:15:18,252 --> 00:15:21,255
and I saw it at probably
the second time it was screened.
224
00:15:21,463 --> 00:15:24,300
We were just watching TV
the night we were arrested.
225
00:15:24,466 --> 00:15:26,510
We were in the bedroom,
turned the light off.
226
00:15:26,677 --> 00:15:31,849
LORRI:
To hear Damien talk in that film,
he reminds me so much of myself.
227
00:15:32,016 --> 00:15:35,894
DAMIEN [OVER PHONE]:
Did she tell you whenever she awarded
herself the first-place prize
228
00:15:36,103 --> 00:15:37,688
and rode in a parade?
229
00:15:37,896 --> 00:15:41,442
She had this sign on the side
of a car that's saying "first place"
230
00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:45,571
and it's got a blue ribbon on it.
And it was not even a contest!
231
00:15:45,738 --> 00:15:46,739
[LAUGHING]
232
00:15:46,905 --> 00:15:49,825
She just gave herself "first place."
233
00:15:50,034 --> 00:15:51,410
[Hr]
234
00:15:51,577 --> 00:15:55,080
LORRI:
After a series of letters, writing,
corresponding with him,
235
00:15:55,247 --> 00:15:57,124
and then I cared deeply about him.
236
00:15:57,333 --> 00:16:00,502
And the next thing I know,
I'm in Arkansas.
237
00:16:00,711 --> 00:16:06,050
DAMIEN:
When I was a real little kid, I had, uhh,
a pet turtle for a while. A box turtle.
238
00:16:06,258 --> 00:16:10,054
Did you do any painting on its shell?
I most certainly did not.
239
00:16:10,262 --> 00:16:11,847
We did.
240
00:16:12,056 --> 00:16:15,726
Seeing the film, you realize
something has gone wrong.
241
00:16:15,934 --> 00:16:19,188
You don't get the full picture
because there's so much to the story,
242
00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:21,815
as we've learned,
as it's unfolded over the years.
243
00:16:22,024 --> 00:16:26,945
I was struck by the fact that these people
didn't commit these crimes.
244
00:16:27,154 --> 00:16:30,074
They don't have the right people
in prison.
245
00:16:34,495 --> 00:16:36,830
REPORTER:
Questions about whether
justice was served
246
00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:39,208
have loomed in this case
since the verdicts.
247
00:16:39,416 --> 00:16:45,631
The HBO documentary Paradise Lost
gave the case worldwide attention.
248
00:16:45,839 --> 00:16:50,844
I am so glad to see so many people here,
people who are interested in this case.
249
00:16:51,053 --> 00:16:57,643
When I started to write Devil's Knot,
my friends said, "Mara, they did it."
250
00:16:57,810 --> 00:17:02,356
And I said, "Well, that may be,
and if that's true I'm gonna find out."
251
00:17:03,357 --> 00:17:08,779
This was probably the first
crowd-sourced criminal investigation
252
00:17:08,946 --> 00:17:12,449
in history,
is about the only way to describe it.
253
00:17:12,658 --> 00:17:15,452
The case was supposedly solved.
If it was an open case,
254
00:17:15,661 --> 00:17:20,416
the West Memphis Police wouldn't be
required to make available documents.
255
00:17:20,624 --> 00:17:25,087
The West Memphis Police put together
an incredibly large investigation.
256
00:17:25,254 --> 00:17:28,757
Even if a lot of it was nonsense
and rumors.
257
00:17:28,924 --> 00:17:31,969
So we could take on the case,
we could begin to ask the questions.
258
00:17:32,136 --> 00:17:34,680
We can look at Jessie's confession
and we could say:
259
00:17:34,888 --> 00:17:36,724
"Wait a second,
what did he really say
260
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,518
compared to what he was claimed
to have said?"
261
00:17:39,685 --> 00:17:43,731
LEVERITT: Right from the start,
after Jessie Misskelley made his
statement to police,
262
00:17:43,897 --> 00:17:46,066
it was recorded, transcribed.
263
00:17:46,233 --> 00:17:50,195
And then it was immediately leaked
to The Commercial Appeal.
264
00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:55,784
STIDHAM:
I read the confession on the front page
of the Memphis Commercial Appeal
265
00:17:55,993 --> 00:18:02,374
just like everybody else did.
And it seemed like it happened.
266
00:18:02,583 --> 00:18:04,710
When we were appointed
by the court in 1993,
267
00:18:04,877 --> 00:18:07,171
we thought it wasn't gonna be
a jury trial.
268
00:18:07,337 --> 00:18:10,007
We thought it was gonna be a plea.
269
00:18:10,174 --> 00:18:13,093
As I got deeper into the case
and looked at things,
270
00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:15,095
they just didn't start making sense.
271
00:18:15,304 --> 00:18:20,350
Misskelley's versions
of what happened changed wildly,
272
00:18:20,517 --> 00:18:23,729
and he couldn't get the story right
every time or any time.
273
00:18:25,981 --> 00:18:29,193
JESSIE SR.:
Everybody round here knew
that Jessie didn't do it.
274
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,404
He didn't like Damien,
he was scared of him.
275
00:18:32,571 --> 00:18:36,116
He, uh, stayed away from him
as much as possible.
276
00:18:37,117 --> 00:18:43,248
Well, he wasn't too good in school.
Had to take him out of school
277
00:18:43,415 --> 00:18:45,334
and I got him started
doing mechanic work.
278
00:18:45,501 --> 00:18:48,420
He caught on pretty good.
279
00:18:48,629 --> 00:18:54,009
JESSIE [OVER PHONE]:
When I was growing up, my dad always
taught me, you know... Tell the truth.
280
00:18:54,176 --> 00:18:57,679
Tell the police the truth. I thought
the police was there to help you.
281
00:18:58,222 --> 00:19:00,974
That's when they, uhh,
started questioning me.
282
00:19:01,183 --> 00:19:03,811
Gary Gitchell and Bryn Ridge was,
283
00:19:03,977 --> 00:19:06,480
you know, asking me some questions.
You know, about the kids.
284
00:19:06,647 --> 00:19:08,774
And I tell them,
"I didn't know nothing about it."
285
00:19:08,982 --> 00:19:14,404
The only thing I knew was what,
you know... What I was told from
another guy.
286
00:19:14,613 --> 00:19:19,451
I kept telling them the whole time,
"I wanna go home. I wanna go home."
287
00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:23,038
HILL:
Certainly one of the reasons
behind why he confessed is
288
00:19:23,247 --> 00:19:25,207
that he's borderline
mentally retarded.
289
00:19:25,415 --> 00:19:29,169
He was trying to compose a story
as though he was there.
290
00:19:29,378 --> 00:19:31,713
He just didn't have the details.
291
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,424
JESSIE [ON RECORDING]:
Right after, uh, they beat up
all three of them.
292
00:19:34,591 --> 00:19:37,678
RIDGE:
Beat them up real bad?
And then they took their clothes off?
293
00:19:37,845 --> 00:19:40,222
JESSE". Mm..hmm. And then they--
FUDGE". Then they tied them?
294
00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:43,183
JESSE'.
Then they tied them up.
Tied their hands up.
295
00:19:43,392 --> 00:19:47,980
RIDGE:
And about what time was it
that all this was taking place?
296
00:19:48,188 --> 00:19:50,065
JESSE:
I was there about 12.
297
00:19:50,274 --> 00:19:52,067
RIDGE:
About noon?
298
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:57,739
Okay. Was it after school had let out?
JESSE". I didn't go to school.
299
00:19:57,906 --> 00:19:59,783
STIDHAM:
It couldn't have happened at noon.
300
00:19:59,950 --> 00:20:02,870
It couldn't have happened
before the kids were out of school.
301
00:20:03,078 --> 00:20:08,792
So they kept leading him down the path
from noon to 4:30, 5:30, 6:30.
302
00:20:09,001 --> 00:20:10,043
Was it getting dark?
303
00:20:10,252 --> 00:20:14,214
RIDGE:
Your time period might not be
exactly right, what you're saying.
304
00:20:14,423 --> 00:20:17,175
STIDHAM:
Police officers don't like
the word "interrogation."
305
00:20:17,384 --> 00:20:19,052
They like the word "interview."
306
00:20:19,261 --> 00:20:22,472
So Mr. Misskelley wasn't interviewed,
he was interrogated.
307
00:20:22,681 --> 00:20:27,352
And he was interrogated from 9:00
in the morning until after dark.
308
00:20:27,561 --> 00:20:30,314
This is an entire day
that he was being interrogated,
309
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,816
yet we only had a few minutes
of the audio tape.
310
00:20:32,983 --> 00:20:36,695
GITCHELL [ON RECORDING]:
Jessie, about what time was it
311
00:20:36,862 --> 00:20:40,449
when the boys
came up to the woods?
312
00:20:40,657 --> 00:20:46,580
JESSE'.
I'd say it was about--
It was about 5 or so. Five or 6.
313
00:20:46,747 --> 00:20:48,206
GITCHELL:
Ummmm
314
00:20:49,499 --> 00:20:54,087
All right, you told me earlier
it was around 7 or 8 or...
Which time is it?
315
00:20:54,254 --> 00:20:55,797
JESSIE: It's 7 or 8.
GITCHELL: Okay.
316
00:20:55,964 --> 00:20:57,799
JESSIE:
I remember it was starting to get dark.
317
00:20:57,966 --> 00:21:00,594
GYYCHELL".
Okay, well, that clears it up.
318
00:21:00,802 --> 00:21:04,598
DRIZIN:
We all have our breaking points.
I think it's important that people realize
319
00:21:04,765 --> 00:21:08,727
that this is not just about a person
320
00:21:08,894 --> 00:21:12,230
with disabilities
falsely confessing to a crime.
321
00:21:12,397 --> 00:21:15,525
This is about police misconduct.
That's what this is about.
322
00:21:15,692 --> 00:21:18,654
Once police convince
the person to make a statement
323
00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:22,157
against their interest,
how does that person
know what to say?
324
00:21:22,658 --> 00:21:27,245
GITCHELL:
Did anyone use a stick,
and hit the boys with?
325
00:21:27,454 --> 00:21:32,793
JESSIE:
Damien had a kind of a big old stick
when he hit that first one.
326
00:21:33,001 --> 00:21:35,671
It's because of this phenomenon
known as contamination,
327
00:21:35,879 --> 00:21:39,508
the police will suggest facts
about how the crime happened.
328
00:21:39,675 --> 00:21:43,136
RIDGE:
What was to keep these little boys
from running off?
329
00:21:43,345 --> 00:21:47,641
Were their hands tied in
a fashion to where they
couldn't have run? You tell me.
330
00:21:47,808 --> 00:21:49,935
NIRIDER:
They're sitting there
listening to the police.
331
00:21:50,102 --> 00:21:52,938
Listening to their interrogators
ask those leading questions.
332
00:21:53,146 --> 00:21:57,234
"Weren't these boys sexually assaulted?"
Then they know what story to tell back.
333
00:21:57,442 --> 00:22:01,905
RIDGE:
Another boy was cut, I understand.
Where was he cut at?
334
00:22:02,114 --> 00:22:04,408
JESSE". At the bottom?
FUDGE'. On his bottom?
335
00:22:04,616 --> 00:22:07,119
GYYCHELL".
Do you mean right here?
In his groin area?
336
00:22:07,327 --> 00:22:08,745
FUDGE".
Do you know what his penis is?
337
00:22:08,912 --> 00:22:10,580
JESSE:
Yeah, that's where he was cut at.
338
00:22:10,747 --> 00:22:14,001
Did it ever occur to you
that what he was telling you was false?
339
00:22:14,167 --> 00:22:19,089
His entire story was false?
Jessie simply got confused. That's all.
340
00:22:19,256 --> 00:22:22,968
DRIZIN:
I mean, Jessie was not convicted
on the basis of his confession.
341
00:22:23,176 --> 00:22:24,720
And neither was Damien and Jason.
342
00:22:24,928 --> 00:22:29,307
They were convicted on the basis
of Gary Gitchell's confession.
343
00:22:29,516 --> 00:22:32,352
That was his story.
344
00:22:32,561 --> 00:22:35,439
All they had to do
was get Jessie to agree to it.
345
00:22:35,647 --> 00:22:40,110
STIDHAM:
It's not particularly difficult
to get a confession from someone
346
00:22:40,318 --> 00:22:41,820
who's mentally handicapped.
347
00:22:42,029 --> 00:22:45,949
It's like interviewing a 3- or 4-,
5-year-old child.
348
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:50,954
BURNETT:
People don't tend to confess to crimes
that they didn't commit.
349
00:22:51,163 --> 00:22:54,916
You know, I'm sure
there may be circumstances
350
00:22:55,083 --> 00:22:57,502
where a person might
have a low mentality.
351
00:22:57,711 --> 00:23:00,922
He's slow-minded, is what it is,
you know what I mean?
352
00:23:01,131 --> 00:23:05,343
It took a while for him to, you know,
get things straight in his mind.
353
00:23:05,552 --> 00:23:08,680
Kind of slow-minded, you know.
354
00:23:08,889 --> 00:23:11,892
Well, hell, everybody's a little bit
slow-minded anyway.
355
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,520
I just have better faith
in our law enforcement
356
00:23:15,729 --> 00:23:19,691
than to force somebody
to make a statement that's untrue.
357
00:23:20,525 --> 00:23:24,446
HILL:
I think that it was essentially poisoned
from the very beginning.
358
00:23:24,654 --> 00:23:27,324
The most basic things
about the investigations,
359
00:23:27,532 --> 00:23:29,117
talking to the family members.
360
00:23:29,326 --> 00:23:32,662
Getting statements from police
that evening.
361
00:23:32,871 --> 00:23:36,708
You know, whether they had these alibis
or not, but it wasn't done.
362
00:23:36,917 --> 00:23:39,628
And it's why the case went bad.
363
00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:42,964
GAIL [ON RECORDING]:
Y'all need to be investigating
some of these people
364
00:23:43,131 --> 00:23:45,509
who've been arrested
for child molestation.
365
00:23:45,675 --> 00:23:46,968
FUDGE".
Well, it's like this.
366
00:23:47,177 --> 00:23:50,555
We've got a story
that is very, very believable.
367
00:23:50,764 --> 00:23:54,976
It is so close to perfect
that we have to believe it.
368
00:23:55,185 --> 00:23:57,395
GA“;
I don't see how anyone could believe it.
369
00:23:57,604 --> 00:24:00,941
Jessie Misskelley said it happened
that morning and everything.
370
00:24:01,149 --> 00:24:02,400
Jason was in school.
371
00:24:02,609 --> 00:24:04,486
And then Jason mowed
his uncle's yard.
372
00:24:04,694 --> 00:24:07,739
He got some money,
went to play video games.
373
00:24:07,906 --> 00:24:11,243
I called Jason's house,
and Jason and Damien
374
00:24:11,409 --> 00:24:13,829
and Jason's brother
were playing video games.
375
00:24:13,995 --> 00:24:16,748
They weren't talking much.
I got a little irritated at them.
376
00:24:16,957 --> 00:24:19,000
Damien asked me to call him
later that night.
377
00:24:19,167 --> 00:24:21,503
There was never a night
that we never spoke.
378
00:24:21,670 --> 00:24:23,713
I remember that we had talked
that night.
379
00:24:23,922 --> 00:24:27,425
When I spoke to police and they came
one afternoon and they spoke to me,
380
00:24:27,634 --> 00:24:29,678
and I talked to them once
and that was it.
381
00:24:29,886 --> 00:24:33,515
"On 9-10-1993, I met Jennifer Bearden
at her residence in Bartlett, Tennessee.
382
00:24:33,682 --> 00:24:36,434
The interview was a result
of having obtained information
383
00:24:36,601 --> 00:24:39,896
that she'd been on the phone
with Damien on the day of the homicide.
384
00:24:40,063 --> 00:24:44,776
She informed me of several times
when she'd been on the phone
with Damien and Jason after school.
385
00:24:44,943 --> 00:24:49,281
And until about 9:30 p.m.
on the evening of 5-5-'93."
386
00:24:49,489 --> 00:24:52,367
I was never given a chance
to at least give them, you know,
387
00:24:52,576 --> 00:24:54,619
an alibi to the jury, I mean.
388
00:24:54,828 --> 00:24:57,706
And honestly, I don't think
it would have changed their minds.
389
00:24:57,914 --> 00:25:01,293
I think they were pretty dead-set
on what they were gonna decide.
390
00:25:01,459 --> 00:25:02,836
STIDHAM:
The evidence will show
391
00:25:03,003 --> 00:25:05,922
that not only was Mr. Misskelley
not in Robin Hood Hills
392
00:25:06,089 --> 00:25:11,052
at the time of these homicides,
he was in a different county
almost 40 miles away
393
00:25:11,261 --> 00:25:13,430
the time these crimes occurred.
394
00:25:13,638 --> 00:25:16,349
There were a lot of alibi witnesses.
395
00:25:16,558 --> 00:25:18,935
When was the first time
you remember seeing Jessie?
396
00:25:19,144 --> 00:25:20,812
At, uh, 2:00.
397
00:25:20,979 --> 00:25:26,067
Jessie came to the house.
I asked if he could watch the kids
while I went to a conference.
398
00:25:26,234 --> 00:25:28,236
She got back about 4:00
and we went walking.
399
00:25:28,403 --> 00:25:31,156
BOY:
I seen him walking down the street.
I met him on the corner.
400
00:25:31,364 --> 00:25:34,618
Talking about him fixing to leave
to go to wrestling.
401
00:25:34,826 --> 00:25:38,288
STIDHAM:
A lot of these folks, when we went back
and visited with them,
402
00:25:38,496 --> 00:25:41,416
they came to the conclusion,
"Oh, yeah, that's the night
403
00:25:41,583 --> 00:25:43,418
that we went wrestling with Jessie."
404
00:25:43,585 --> 00:25:46,713
Do you remember if you went wrestling?
Yes, sir, I did.
405
00:25:46,922 --> 00:25:50,133
Okay, do you remember who went?
Jessie, Freddy.
406
00:25:50,342 --> 00:25:52,886
Me and Jessie and Freddy
407
00:25:53,053 --> 00:25:55,680
and James was at wrestling
that night, you know.
408
00:25:55,889 --> 00:25:57,724
STIDHAM:
And that's the night that he got hurt.
409
00:25:57,891 --> 00:26:00,769
And that's the night
that so-and-so only went with us
410
00:26:00,977 --> 00:26:02,437
Once.
one time.
411
00:26:02,604 --> 00:26:06,399
That was the same night that we signed
this register at the wrestling hall.
412
00:26:06,566 --> 00:26:09,194
Do you remember seeing Misskelley?
Yes, sir.
413
00:26:09,361 --> 00:26:10,654
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
414
00:26:10,820 --> 00:26:12,781
You remember Jessie Misskelley?
Yes, sir.
415
00:26:12,948 --> 00:26:14,866
Are you positive about that?
Yes, sir.
416
00:26:15,075 --> 00:26:18,453
Looking through the juror's notes,
they hardly seemed to pay attention
417
00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:20,455
during the alibi portion of it.
418
00:26:24,793 --> 00:26:30,298
PAM:
You could say I sort of, like, died myself
because I shut out humanity,
419
00:26:30,507 --> 00:26:34,302
and I didn't like people,
I was a hateful person,
420
00:26:34,511 --> 00:26:37,722
and before this happened
I wasn't that type of person.
421
00:26:37,889 --> 00:26:42,894
Words can't explain what the grief,
and what you go through...
422
00:26:43,812 --> 00:26:48,108
We have found this to be
a world of its own.
423
00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:51,945
PAM:
We had quite a few arguments
and stuff because I couldn't let go.
424
00:26:52,153 --> 00:26:54,864
He told me I had to let it go,
I had to keep living,
425
00:26:55,073 --> 00:26:59,327
and I told him I was still in that ditch
just as much as my son was,
426
00:26:59,536 --> 00:27:04,624
and I was clawing my way out of it
the best way that I knew how.
427
00:27:04,833 --> 00:27:11,298
I left Terry in 2002
and we were divorced in 2004.
428
00:27:12,173 --> 00:27:16,845
I do think that you can meet someone
and know that there's something there.
429
00:27:17,012 --> 00:27:18,847
That there's some journey there
for you.
430
00:27:19,055 --> 00:27:21,683
But I think it takes a long,
it does take a long time,
431
00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:24,311
and I think it's a painful process,
actually.
432
00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:30,317
I was talking about it and how really
and truly stressed out you were that day.
433
00:27:30,525 --> 00:27:34,487
It was the first time you'd been touched
by anybody, like, in seven years.
434
00:27:34,696 --> 00:27:37,699
And I'll never forget you were, like,
so completely pale.
435
00:27:37,866 --> 00:27:39,993
And you were shaking,
and I kind of thought
436
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,996
you were gonna pass out
at one point.
437
00:27:43,204 --> 00:27:44,622
[DAMIEN LAUGHS OVER PHONE]
438
00:27:44,831 --> 00:27:48,668
It was a Buddhist ceremony,
and we kind of wrote it ourselves and--
439
00:27:48,877 --> 00:27:52,172
DAMIEN:
They had a little-- We had a little
temple set up or a little altar set up,
440
00:27:52,380 --> 00:27:54,299
We did.
Incense burning on it.
441
00:27:54,466 --> 00:27:57,135
You know, they had two guards
up there watching the whole thing.
442
00:27:57,344 --> 00:28:00,513
And you could tell they had no idea,
you know, what the hell was going on.
443
00:28:00,722 --> 00:28:03,224
So they just pretty much stayed
out of the way.
444
00:28:03,433 --> 00:28:07,687
We'd intersperse lots of, you know,
bowing, then kissing and hugging.
445
00:28:07,896 --> 00:28:11,191
I think you're supposed to only kiss
once or something in the ceremony.
446
00:28:11,358 --> 00:28:15,362
We just-- We made it seem like
it was a part of the ceremony.
447
00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:17,530
So that was nice,
that was really nice.
448
00:28:17,739 --> 00:28:22,452
But, you know, back then
it was nothing like it is now, you know,
449
00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:24,662
with the people who knew
about the case.
450
00:28:24,871 --> 00:28:28,625
So it was kind of nice
because it was real low-key.
451
00:28:28,833 --> 00:28:30,835
[Hr]
452
00:28:35,048 --> 00:28:40,178
RIORDAN:
I had talked to Lorri. She had
come out to talk about the case.
453
00:28:40,345 --> 00:28:44,641
My attitude at the time was,
you know, we cannot do this.
454
00:28:44,849 --> 00:28:49,979
They were adamant that this should be
and was a case about innocence.
455
00:28:50,188 --> 00:28:55,235
"We don't want you to focus on death
versus life without parole.
456
00:28:55,443 --> 00:28:57,070
This is a case about innocence."
457
00:28:57,278 --> 00:28:59,906
My reaction was,
if it is a case about innocence,
458
00:29:00,115 --> 00:29:03,034
what they said is that
there's all of this investigation
459
00:29:03,201 --> 00:29:05,453
that has to be done on the ground
in Arkansas.
460
00:29:05,662 --> 00:29:09,749
And we're, you know, a two-lawyer
partnership in San Francisco.
461
00:29:09,958 --> 00:29:14,087
How are we possibly gonna get
the resources to get on the ground
462
00:29:14,295 --> 00:29:17,132
and really investigate
a case in Arkansas?
463
00:29:17,757 --> 00:29:22,720
Lorri Davis said,
"I'll find a way to do it."
464
00:29:22,929 --> 00:29:28,560
I've quit my job, my other job,
so I that can work full-time on the case.
465
00:29:28,768 --> 00:29:32,147
Attorneys for Damien Echols are
appealing their client's conviction
466
00:29:32,355 --> 00:29:35,191
on Arkansas Rule 37,
ineffective counsel.
467
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,026
Prosecutors disagree.
468
00:29:37,235 --> 00:29:41,030
It was effective, it was thorough.
469
00:29:41,197 --> 00:29:43,032
It was a 17-day trial.
470
00:29:43,241 --> 00:29:47,412
REPORTER: Outside the court,
supporters unveiled a banner
of more than 2500 postcards,
471
00:29:47,579 --> 00:29:50,540
each pleading to free
the West Memphis Three.
472
00:29:51,166 --> 00:29:53,793
VEDDER:
It was always about
free the West Memphis Three.
473
00:29:54,002 --> 00:29:57,881
We were raising funds and it wasn't
even to raise money for their defense.
474
00:29:58,047 --> 00:30:00,842
It was to raise money
so they had money when they got out.
475
00:30:01,009 --> 00:30:03,553
Because the day was coming soon.
476
00:30:04,179 --> 00:30:06,723
ROLLINS:
I decided it should be
Black Flag songs.
477
00:30:06,890 --> 00:30:10,852
I called Iggy Pop, he said sure.
I called Lemmy, he said, "I'm in."
478
00:30:11,019 --> 00:30:13,897
Called Chuck D from Public Enemy,
he said, "You got it."
479
00:30:14,063 --> 00:30:17,650
All to help these three guys
who I'd never met.
480
00:30:17,859 --> 00:30:20,862
I went to your benefit show in '03
for the West Memphis Three.
481
00:30:21,070 --> 00:30:23,323
It was like the best concert
I've ever been to.
482
00:30:23,531 --> 00:30:25,867
See?
I can't believe that this is still going on.
483
00:30:26,034 --> 00:30:30,413
Yeah, well. I saw a little bit of myself.
Damien liked to hang out alone
484
00:30:30,580 --> 00:30:33,291
and wrote in his journals
that he was depressed. Hello.
485
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,128
He liked to listen to weird music.
Check.
486
00:30:37,337 --> 00:30:40,173
He was a wise-ass
in the face of law enforcement.
487
00:30:40,381 --> 00:30:44,302
I mean, are you kidding?
It could have been me.
488
00:30:44,969 --> 00:30:46,012
Could have been me.
489
00:30:46,179 --> 00:30:48,097
Not everyone agreed
with Rollins' message.
490
00:30:48,264 --> 00:30:53,228
The parents of the murdered children
showed displeasure with picket signs.
491
00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:55,897
My baby was murdered
and butchered like an animal
492
00:30:56,064 --> 00:30:57,565
and his two friends were too.
493
00:30:57,732 --> 00:31:00,860
Whatever punishment they get,
they deserve.
494
00:31:01,027 --> 00:31:05,782
REPORTER:
Michael's mother, Diana Moore, agrees,
telling us, "Make no mistake about it.
495
00:31:05,949 --> 00:31:09,661
These three you see convicted
and sentenced did it."
496
00:31:09,869 --> 00:31:13,039
ROLLINS:
I started getting very passionate,
very sincere hate mail.
497
00:31:13,206 --> 00:31:15,875
Because if you are seen to be
sticking up for someone
498
00:31:16,084 --> 00:31:19,712
who someone else truly believes
has murdered a child,
499
00:31:19,921 --> 00:31:23,132
there's no way you can reason
with that person.
500
00:31:23,341 --> 00:31:25,969
VEDDER:
I remember thinking that
if we could get involved,
501
00:31:26,135 --> 00:31:28,721
we'd probably get them out
in maybe one or two years.
502
00:31:28,888 --> 00:31:30,682
That's how naive I was.
503
00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:35,687
It's usually on average
of like 15 to 20 years.
504
00:31:35,895 --> 00:31:38,731
If you would have told us that
three or four years in,
505
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:41,276
I think it would have been
quite daunting.
506
00:31:42,819 --> 00:31:48,575
LORRI:
This is the first e-mail that I received
from Fran and Peter, and it's 7-25-'05.
507
00:31:48,783 --> 00:31:51,703
"What a horror story, unbelievable.
508
00:31:51,869 --> 00:31:55,290
Something positive
has to come from this.
509
00:31:55,498 --> 00:31:57,750
What can we do down here
in New Zealand?
510
00:31:57,959 --> 00:32:00,545
Our names are Peter Jackson
and Fran Walsh.
511
00:32:00,753 --> 00:32:04,716
We would like to offer financial
assistance to help facilitate, hopefully,
512
00:32:04,924 --> 00:32:08,511
a positive outcome in Damien's appeal
to the federal court."
513
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,722
JACKSON:
When Fran and I first got involved,
514
00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:13,766
it felt like the case
was in a holding pattern.
515
00:32:13,933 --> 00:32:18,313
But it wasn't a holding pattern
for Damien's chances of staying alive.
516
00:32:18,479 --> 00:32:20,815
That doesn't go into a holding pattern.
517
00:32:21,024 --> 00:32:23,610
LORRI:
"Dear Fran and Peter,
your e-mail was a welcome sight
518
00:32:23,776 --> 00:32:27,488
on a very hot Monday morning
here in Arkansas.
519
00:32:27,697 --> 00:32:29,115
My name is Lorri Davis
520
00:32:29,324 --> 00:32:32,493
and I have been involved
in working on the case for nine years.
521
00:32:32,702 --> 00:32:35,246
There are many twists
and turns to the story.
522
00:32:35,455 --> 00:32:37,332
It's still incredibly frustrating.
523
00:32:37,540 --> 00:32:40,460
Appeal's taking forever
and funds always needed."
524
00:32:41,961 --> 00:32:47,967
JACKSON:
I have a pathological hatred
of bullying and people in power
525
00:32:48,176 --> 00:32:52,472
crapping on people who have
no ability to defend themselves.
526
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,933
I believe in justice. I think there are
good people and bad people.
527
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:58,353
People do horrible things
and should be punished.
528
00:32:58,561 --> 00:33:01,189
Justice should be fair,
it should be honorable,
529
00:33:01,397 --> 00:33:05,276
it should be decent, it should speak
to our values as human beings
530
00:33:05,485 --> 00:33:07,445
that right must prevail.
531
00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:12,200
And all that I could see in the case
of the West Memphis Three is
532
00:33:12,408 --> 00:33:18,081
wrong was prevailing and that wrong
was being perpetrated by people
533
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:21,000
who, I believe,
knew they were doing wrong.
534
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,839
DAMIEN:
Most people think that this case
is something extraordinary.
535
00:33:27,006 --> 00:33:30,802
It's spectacular in some sort of way,
and it's not. Burnett and Fogleman
536
00:33:30,968 --> 00:33:34,097
thought they could make a name
for themselves off of this case.
537
00:33:34,305 --> 00:33:36,849
Because, really,
you're dealing with three kids
538
00:33:37,058 --> 00:33:40,687
who were bottom of the barrel,
poor white trash
539
00:33:40,895 --> 00:33:44,023
that nobody's ever gonna
ask another question about.
540
00:33:46,401 --> 00:33:48,319
He thought they would say, "Guilty."
541
00:33:48,528 --> 00:33:51,030
This whole thing would be swept
under the rug.
542
00:33:51,239 --> 00:33:52,573
The state would kill me.
543
00:33:52,782 --> 00:33:55,159
Jason and Jessie would spend
their lives in prison.
544
00:33:55,326 --> 00:33:58,162
He'd move up the political ladder.
That's all he cared about.
545
00:33:58,329 --> 00:34:04,210
This case is nothing out of the ordinary.
This happens all the time.
546
00:34:07,171 --> 00:34:11,008
How did I decide
which trial would go first?
547
00:34:12,218 --> 00:34:15,680
And the reason I'm hesitating,
I'm trying to think if that's a question
548
00:34:15,888 --> 00:34:18,599
that I should be answering.
549
00:34:19,475 --> 00:34:22,228
In general, a case with a confession,
550
00:34:22,979 --> 00:34:25,815
uh, would be your easier case
551
00:34:25,982 --> 00:34:29,193
as opposed to one
without direct evidence.
552
00:34:34,532 --> 00:34:36,784
Ten feet, ma'am. Back up.
REPORTER 1: Okay.
553
00:34:36,951 --> 00:34:39,954
Are you gonna testify
against your co-defendants?
554
00:34:40,121 --> 00:34:42,915
REPORTER 2:
Jessie, were you forced
to talk about this?
555
00:34:43,124 --> 00:34:44,751
LEVERITT:
The prosecutors had a problem.
556
00:34:44,959 --> 00:34:46,669
They could not play the tape
557
00:34:46,878 --> 00:34:49,255
of Misskelley's statement
at the second trial.
558
00:34:49,422 --> 00:34:51,340
STIDHAM:
They needed Mr. Misskelley to testify.
559
00:34:51,507 --> 00:34:54,552
They thought they were gonna lose
the other two.
560
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,721
REPORTER:
Are you worried about his testimony?
561
00:34:56,888 --> 00:35:01,017
STIDHAM:
Judge Burnett appointed Phillip Wells
to interview Mr. Misskelley
562
00:35:01,225 --> 00:35:04,437
to make sure he didn't really,
really, really want to testify
563
00:35:04,645 --> 00:35:07,356
against Baldwin and Echols.
564
00:35:07,523 --> 00:35:10,401
Here's a young 18-year-old,
under a lot of stress,
565
00:35:10,568 --> 00:35:15,364
facing life plus 40 years in penitentiary.
He has to make sure whatever options
566
00:35:15,531 --> 00:35:19,660
and offers are available to him
are looked into or communicated.
567
00:35:19,869 --> 00:35:23,581
NIRIDER:
Promises of lesser sentences,
you know, a much easier life in prison.
568
00:35:23,790 --> 00:35:28,044
DRIZIN:
Many defendants would have
jumped on that deal. Jessie said no.
569
00:35:28,211 --> 00:35:30,171
NIRIDER:
They can't come up
with physical evidence.
570
00:35:30,338 --> 00:35:33,090
They've got to turn to witnesses
who they can convince
571
00:35:33,257 --> 00:35:36,719
to give statements in court. That's
the only evidence they come up with.
572
00:35:36,928 --> 00:35:41,057
REPORTER:
Just when it seemed attorneys for
the state had their back against a wall,
573
00:35:41,265 --> 00:35:44,060
Craighead County Courthouse
came to an eerie silence
574
00:35:44,268 --> 00:35:47,563
as 16-year-old Michael Carson,
a formerjuvenile inmate,
575
00:35:47,772 --> 00:35:50,107
who spent time with Baldwin,
took the stand.
576
00:35:50,316 --> 00:35:55,154
CARSON:
I was doing serious adult drugs and,
I mean, I was doing a lot of them.
577
00:35:55,321 --> 00:35:58,908
I got out there.
I thought birds had cameras on them.
578
00:36:00,117 --> 00:36:05,456
Michael Carson, he was fixing
to go to the penitentiary
579
00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:11,087
for several counts
of residential burglary,
580
00:36:11,295 --> 00:36:15,591
and that is when the prosecutor
got a hold of him.
581
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,303
Were you offered anything
as far as a reward
582
00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:21,222
or anything of that nature?
583
00:36:21,389 --> 00:36:22,932
No, sir, and if I was,
I would deny it.
584
00:36:23,099 --> 00:36:27,270
Jason was not very outspoken.
He wasn't, you know,
jumping around and stuff.
585
00:36:27,478 --> 00:36:30,231
He's a very quiet,
to-himself type of person.
586
00:36:30,439 --> 00:36:33,276
What did he tell you?
He told me
587
00:36:33,484 --> 00:36:35,319
how he dismembered the kid,
588
00:36:35,528 --> 00:36:37,947
he sucked the blood
from the penis and scrotum
589
00:36:38,155 --> 00:36:40,366
and put the balls in his mouth.
590
00:36:40,575 --> 00:36:43,327
I remember not knowing
why I was doing what I was doing.
591
00:36:43,536 --> 00:36:45,913
I remember it actually going
through my head.
592
00:36:46,122 --> 00:36:51,377
I would have this massive illusion
in my head and swear to God it was real.
593
00:36:51,586 --> 00:36:55,464
CURTON:
And the kids, that night
I let them listen to the news,
594
00:36:55,673 --> 00:36:58,801
and they just went crazy.
595
00:36:59,010 --> 00:37:04,473
They said, "He's a lying son of a bitch.
Jason didn't tell him nothing."
596
00:37:05,308 --> 00:37:08,144
CARSON:
I could understand why he would
never want to see me again
597
00:37:08,352 --> 00:37:13,232
or talk to me again, but I'm just
telling him right now that I'm sorry.
598
00:37:13,441 --> 00:37:17,361
CURETON:
I made the statement to Larry,
the sheriff.
599
00:37:17,528 --> 00:37:20,364
I said,
"Larry, those kids are not guilty."
600
00:37:20,573 --> 00:37:24,952
He said, "Joyce."
He said, "it's this simple.
601
00:37:25,161 --> 00:37:29,916
Crittenden County fucked up,
now we've got to clean up."
602
00:37:30,124 --> 00:37:31,167
CARSON:
I'm a drug addict.
603
00:37:31,375 --> 00:37:35,796
I was doing a lot of inhalants, LSD,
I was huffing gas all the time.
604
00:37:36,005 --> 00:37:41,344
It's bad. It takes your whole perspective
on life and makes it a dream.
605
00:37:42,762 --> 00:37:46,891
And they knew that.
They knew the drugs that I was doing.
606
00:37:57,068 --> 00:38:00,029
LORRI:
Did you walk in those woods
in the winter?
607
00:38:00,237 --> 00:38:03,491
DAMIEN [OVER PHONE]:
Yeah, that was the best time
because during summer
608
00:38:03,699 --> 00:38:06,118
it's really marshy.
609
00:38:06,327 --> 00:38:09,580
During the winter it was froze,
the ground would be froze solid.
610
00:38:09,789 --> 00:38:13,584
So you didn't have to worry about
all the mud and all that business.
611
00:38:13,793 --> 00:38:16,545
LORRI:
I love the thought of being out there.
612
00:38:16,754 --> 00:38:21,550
DAMIEN:
The cool, dark part of the year,
it's my absolute favorite time of year.
613
00:38:21,759 --> 00:38:23,678
Part of it was that whenever I was out,
614
00:38:23,844 --> 00:38:26,931
that was always the time of year
whenever I felt the safest.
615
00:38:27,139 --> 00:38:30,851
Because most people, whenever
it gets cold, you know, they're not out.
616
00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:35,856
So it's almost like at that time of year
the entire world is almost yours.
617
00:38:36,065 --> 00:38:37,149
Nobody else wants it.
618
00:38:37,316 --> 00:38:39,568
[Hr]
619
00:38:39,735 --> 00:38:43,239
Jason and I would talk about leaving
that place, moving out of that place,
620
00:38:43,447 --> 00:38:48,244
but we were so young that it never was
a definite plan, it was always just
621
00:38:48,452 --> 00:38:51,664
we've got to get the hell out of here.
622
00:38:51,872 --> 00:38:55,835
The thing that Jason always loved
was art. You know, painting,
623
00:38:56,043 --> 00:38:57,378
drawing, things like that.
624
00:38:57,586 --> 00:39:00,423
He would do these paintings
that were absolutely incredible
625
00:39:00,589 --> 00:39:02,425
when he had art class in school.
626
00:39:02,633 --> 00:39:04,468
The teacher would refuse
to grade them.
627
00:39:04,635 --> 00:39:07,513
She would say,
"That's not what I told you to paint.
628
00:39:07,722 --> 00:39:11,934
That's not what I told you to draw,
I don't want to see one more skull."
629
00:39:12,143 --> 00:39:16,147
She would say, you know, "You were
assigned to do a still-life of flowers."
630
00:39:16,313 --> 00:39:19,817
Jason was like, "Fuck that, I'm not
doing that, it's not what I want to do."
631
00:39:21,652 --> 00:39:25,656
I've jokingly said to Lorri before
that I think that, in a lot of ways,
632
00:39:25,823 --> 00:39:28,576
I may have brought this on myself,
this entire situation.
633
00:39:28,743 --> 00:39:31,328
Because when I was a child
I knew what my passion was,
634
00:39:31,537 --> 00:39:35,958
I knew what my drive was, I knew
what my desire was. I loved magic.
635
00:39:36,167 --> 00:39:39,378
I would say to myself, you know,
these names that people think of.
636
00:39:39,587 --> 00:39:42,423
I would say, "One day my name
is gonna eclipse all of them.
637
00:39:42,631 --> 00:39:45,176
I'm gonna be the greatest magician
there's ever been."
638
00:39:45,384 --> 00:39:49,263
And I had no idea that that meant
I would have 20 years
639
00:39:49,472 --> 00:39:53,726
to sit alone in a prison cell
and practice and study.
640
00:39:55,061 --> 00:39:57,813
But that's a word
that you don't even use here,
641
00:39:58,022 --> 00:40:00,191
because when people
hear the word "magic,"
642
00:40:00,357 --> 00:40:02,777
anything even remotely
connected to magic
643
00:40:02,985 --> 00:40:04,862
has to be evil in some kind of way.
644
00:40:07,114 --> 00:40:09,700
DRIVER:
Uh, I noticed that Damien,
645
00:40:09,909 --> 00:40:15,456
he had on kind of a black
duster-looking coat and carried a staff.
646
00:40:15,623 --> 00:40:18,751
And I-- You know,
that's kind of weird-looking.
647
00:40:18,959 --> 00:40:24,799
But that's one of the things
that I testified to in the court hearing.
648
00:40:25,007 --> 00:40:26,258
JACKSON
Damien, Jason
649
00:40:26,467 --> 00:40:29,720
and Jessie had no motive
whatsoever to kill these three boys.
650
00:40:29,929 --> 00:40:32,223
You know,
boys that they didn't even know.
651
00:40:32,973 --> 00:40:37,311
And so, therefore, the state went
to the only motiveless theory
652
00:40:37,478 --> 00:40:39,522
that they could possibly go to.
653
00:40:40,022 --> 00:40:42,358
We thought that the best thing
to do would be to
654
00:40:42,566 --> 00:40:45,569
actually get some expert analysis
on the crime itself.
655
00:40:45,778 --> 00:40:50,908
As far as we could see the best person
to get would be John Douglas,
656
00:40:51,492 --> 00:40:57,373
who was there at the creation
of the FBI Behavioral Science Unit.
657
00:40:59,166 --> 00:41:03,462
From the evidence and the crime scene,
they start to put a picture together
658
00:41:03,671 --> 00:41:07,341
of who committed the crime
and why they committed the crime.
659
00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:11,595
DOUGLAS: My role when
I was brought into this case was
primarily to analyze the case to see
660
00:41:12,388 --> 00:41:15,516
does it really fit the three people
they have in prison?
661
00:41:15,724 --> 00:41:17,560
I didn't wanna know anything
about them.
662
00:41:17,726 --> 00:41:20,771
I don't want to become prejudiced
and be swayed in any way.
663
00:41:21,063 --> 00:41:26,026
If I do an analysis like this,
you may not like what I have
to say. I'm not a hired gun.
664
00:41:26,193 --> 00:41:28,779
When I work on a case like this,
I work for the victims.
665
00:41:28,988 --> 00:41:31,907
No matter who brings me in,
I'm working for the victims.
666
00:41:33,242 --> 00:41:36,912
This appeared to be
what we call a lust murder.
667
00:41:37,121 --> 00:41:41,208
There's blunt-force trauma inflicted
on these children.
668
00:41:41,417 --> 00:41:45,337
There was evidence of sexual mutilation
to one of the victims.
669
00:41:45,546 --> 00:41:47,965
Three victims were hog-tied
with their shoelaces
670
00:41:48,174 --> 00:41:51,594
from their wrists to their ankles.
671
00:41:51,802 --> 00:41:56,515
And on the surface, it appeared
to be a sexually motivated crime.
672
00:41:57,433 --> 00:42:01,729
The focus of the investigation
is always on the families.
673
00:42:02,188 --> 00:42:05,357
You start from there,
and you work your way out.
674
00:42:05,524 --> 00:42:07,526
[Hr]
675
00:42:08,277 --> 00:42:10,196
STIDHAM:
There were some police notes
676
00:42:10,404 --> 00:42:13,032
where they had looked
into the possibility
677
00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:17,203
that a stepfather might be involved.
678
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:20,706
BYERS:
They take me back to
the police station and said:
679
00:42:20,873 --> 00:42:25,544
"We have information
that you are involved in this crime
680
00:42:25,711 --> 00:42:26,837
and that you did it."
681
00:42:27,046 --> 00:42:30,716
RIDGE [ON RECORDING]:
I may have information
that you have something to do
682
00:42:30,883 --> 00:42:35,262
with the disappearance of the boys,
and, ultimately, of the murder.
683
00:42:35,429 --> 00:42:39,600
BYERS".
It's almost more than I can believe,
you know, what you just said to me.
684
00:42:39,808 --> 00:42:43,145
And it makes me so mad inside
685
00:42:43,354 --> 00:42:46,899
that I just kind of got to hold myself
here in this chair.
686
00:42:47,107 --> 00:42:49,652
I had hair removed.
687
00:42:49,860 --> 00:42:55,115
I had to have over 30 pubic hairs
pulled out, plus the roots.
688
00:42:55,449 --> 00:42:57,451
FUDGE".
We're gonna interview
the other two fathers.
689
00:42:57,660 --> 00:42:59,912
We're gonna ask them
the same questions.
690
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,999
They said, "We're gonna do
the other family members
691
00:43:04,208 --> 00:43:06,293
just like we gonna do you."
692
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:14,176
JACKSON:
The assumption is that the crime was
unusual, it was bizarre, it was grotesque.
693
00:43:14,885 --> 00:43:18,055
Even when
Paradise Lost 2 comes out,
694
00:43:18,264 --> 00:43:20,683
and they are presenting
an alternative scenario,
695
00:43:20,891 --> 00:43:27,147
they're going to an equally
theatrical possible perpetrator
in John Mark Byers.
696
00:43:28,649 --> 00:43:30,317
LORRI:
"Dearest Damien.
697
00:43:30,484 --> 00:43:32,611
There are many things we can do
698
00:43:32,778 --> 00:43:35,906
that can shed light on the truth
of what happened to those boys.
699
00:43:36,115 --> 00:43:38,534
It is impossible
to do something this heinous
700
00:43:38,742 --> 00:43:40,577
and not leave a personal imprint.
701
00:43:40,786 --> 00:43:43,622
We need to do extensive
investigative work on Byers,
702
00:43:43,831 --> 00:43:46,792
investigative work
that the police failed to do."
703
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,255
DOUGLAS:
I went down to the Memphis area
and conducted
704
00:43:51,463 --> 00:43:55,175
an interview with Mark Byers, or
attempted to conduct an initial interview.
705
00:43:55,384 --> 00:43:59,930
I knocked on his door,
he came out, his wife came out,
706
00:44:00,139 --> 00:44:02,641
and pretty much,
he wanted to kick me off his porch.
707
00:44:02,850 --> 00:44:04,101
He didn't wanna talk to me.
708
00:44:04,310 --> 00:44:10,941
BYERS:
It was daily grind, fighting on the
Internet with people, being in a place
709
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:15,988
and someone recognizing me
and get up and go call their friends,
710
00:44:16,196 --> 00:44:21,368
then all of a sudden, I got a mob,
and I got to sneak out the back door
711
00:44:21,577 --> 00:44:23,537
because I know
a ass-kicking's coming.
712
00:44:23,746 --> 00:44:27,958
LORRI:
"We need to find all of Mark Byers' living
relatives. We need to find Ryan Clark.
713
00:44:28,167 --> 00:44:30,878
We need to figure out a strategy
for getting him to talk.
714
00:44:31,086 --> 00:44:32,921
We need to know where
and at what time
715
00:44:33,088 --> 00:44:35,341
they went looking for Christopher
on May 5th.
716
00:44:35,507 --> 00:44:37,468
We need to locate all
of Byers' vehicles
717
00:44:37,676 --> 00:44:40,512
that he owned at that time
and Luminol-test them.
718
00:44:40,721 --> 00:44:42,598
We need to access
Byers' ex-residence
719
00:44:42,806 --> 00:44:45,893
and Luminol-test every floor surface
in the house.
720
00:44:46,685 --> 00:44:48,979
Lots of questions,
and not many answers.
721
00:44:49,605 --> 00:44:52,232
But right now
we're still stumbling around in the dark
722
00:44:52,399 --> 00:44:53,859
looking for a light switch."
723
00:44:57,196 --> 00:44:59,073
DOUGLAS:
Mark Byers, he had a tough life.
724
00:44:59,281 --> 00:45:02,826
He has a criminal history,
got busted for some prescription drugs.
725
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:08,582
But he is not the type of personality
that would perpetrate a crime
726
00:45:08,791 --> 00:45:12,711
like the crimes I was looking at
here in West Memphis.
727
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,880
RIORDAN:
When we learned the case,
728
00:45:15,089 --> 00:45:18,008
the timeline just
didn't add up to us.
729
00:45:18,217 --> 00:45:21,887
JACKSON:
Beyond the theatrical nature
of Mark Byers,
730
00:45:22,096 --> 00:45:25,265
he didn't have a motive,
he didn't actually have the opportunity.
731
00:45:25,474 --> 00:45:27,434
RIORDAN:
It became clear to us that,
732
00:45:27,643 --> 00:45:29,728
you know,
people were looking at Byers
733
00:45:29,937 --> 00:45:33,107
because they thought he was
the sort of person who could do this.
734
00:45:33,315 --> 00:45:36,735
And our reaction to that was
the reason Damien got convicted
735
00:45:36,902 --> 00:45:40,197
was that people thought he was
the sort of person who could do this.
736
00:45:41,740 --> 00:45:43,075
DOUGLAS:
When I was in the Bureau,
737
00:45:43,242 --> 00:45:46,120
we came up with a crime
classification manual we designed.
738
00:45:46,286 --> 00:45:47,496
We considered Satanic
739
00:45:47,663 --> 00:45:50,833
because these cops were
bringing back these cases to us.
740
00:45:51,041 --> 00:45:52,584
Satanic murders, Satanic murders.
741
00:45:52,793 --> 00:45:55,295
There were classes being offered
all over the country.
742
00:45:55,504 --> 00:45:57,005
Oprah Winfrey had shows,
743
00:45:57,214 --> 00:46:00,050
Geraldo Rivera had shows,
it was all over here.
744
00:46:00,259 --> 00:46:04,471
Another area that you might
find Satanic ritual carving
745
00:46:04,638 --> 00:46:06,390
is in the stomach area.
746
00:46:06,598 --> 00:46:09,601
This is not a Satanic--
This is not a ritual. It's a murder.
747
00:46:09,810 --> 00:46:11,895
It's a murder
maybe by one crazy guy.
748
00:46:12,062 --> 00:46:14,231
If you're calling this Satanic,
we could have
749
00:46:14,398 --> 00:46:16,775
just as many murders
where a Bible is left there.
750
00:46:16,942 --> 00:46:20,362
Does that make it a Christian murder?
It's a Bible? I mean, no, it's nuts.
751
00:46:20,571 --> 00:46:23,532
It's just one, you know, crazy person.
752
00:46:23,740 --> 00:46:25,492
Police say Satanists in our area
753
00:46:25,659 --> 00:46:29,329
often conduct their rituals
in remote, wooded areas.
754
00:46:29,538 --> 00:46:34,042
FOGLEMAN:
At some point did Damien invite you
to some meeting?
755
00:46:34,209 --> 00:46:35,252
He did.
756
00:46:35,461 --> 00:46:37,880
STIDHAM:
The West Memphis Police
didn't seem interested
757
00:46:38,046 --> 00:46:41,258
in corroborating anything,
they just took everything at face value.
758
00:46:41,884 --> 00:46:46,221
A cult, Satanic meeting.
FOGLEMAN: Okay.
759
00:46:49,766 --> 00:46:52,978
I got a phone call from
a lawyer in Fayetteville
760
00:46:53,145 --> 00:46:55,772
who had Vicki Hutcheson
sitting at her desk.
761
00:46:55,981 --> 00:46:58,066
WOMAN:
Would you raise your right hand?
762
00:46:58,233 --> 00:47:02,446
STIDHAM:
Said, "She's ready to recant her trial
testimony, how fast can you get here?"
763
00:47:03,864 --> 00:47:07,784
She obviously asked for immunity
from the state,
764
00:47:07,951 --> 00:47:09,620
which they refused to grant.
765
00:47:09,828 --> 00:47:15,167
So here's the State of Arkansas at
the Rule 37 hearings still stonewalling,
766
00:47:15,375 --> 00:47:18,545
still refusing to let the truth shine
on this case.
767
00:47:18,754 --> 00:47:20,756
HUTCHESON [ON RECORDING]:
Damien and I stood back,
768
00:47:20,923 --> 00:47:23,550
and then these kids took
their clothes off,
769
00:47:23,759 --> 00:47:27,930
and I looked at Damien,
and I said, "I want to leave."
770
00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:33,644
I testified to it, but I lied on the stand.
771
00:47:33,852 --> 00:47:36,271
STIDHAM:
It was frightening to listen to her
tell the truth,
772
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,899
the truth that I knew had existed
all these years.
773
00:47:39,107 --> 00:47:42,110
The truth that she wouldn't
come out and say
774
00:47:42,277 --> 00:47:44,905
because she was afraid
of what would happen to her.
775
00:47:45,072 --> 00:47:47,032
WOMAN:
You mentioned
that you went and met
776
00:47:47,199 --> 00:47:49,368
Jerry Driver
at the Marion Police Department.
777
00:47:49,576 --> 00:47:51,078
DRIVER:
I'm trying to remember.
778
00:47:51,286 --> 00:47:52,788
I do, I know who she is.
779
00:47:52,996 --> 00:47:56,041
It's just kind of back in my mind
somewhere.
780
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:58,085
WOMAN:
What did they ask you to do?
781
00:47:58,293 --> 00:48:01,880
Do I think-- They asked me,
do I think I could get, um, Jessie
782
00:48:02,089 --> 00:48:03,549
to introduce me to Damien.
783
00:48:04,174 --> 00:48:10,722
DRIVER:
All we asked her was to go in
and see what she could find out.
784
00:48:11,473 --> 00:48:15,561
Now that was with police department's
knowledge and consent.
785
00:48:15,769 --> 00:48:17,437
He's the one that suggested:
786
00:48:17,646 --> 00:48:21,275
"Well, if you're gonna have Damien over,
you to need to have demon books
787
00:48:21,483 --> 00:48:24,653
on your coffee table."
788
00:48:24,861 --> 00:48:28,407
The only thing she was coached
to do was to not get caught,
789
00:48:28,615 --> 00:48:33,745
because we were actually afraid
that if she got caught, he'd kill her.
790
00:48:34,496 --> 00:48:37,499
HUTCHESON:
Damien looks down
at those demon book things.
791
00:48:37,708 --> 00:48:41,003
And I said, "Why are you so nervous?"
And he said, "Well, you'd be nervous too
792
00:48:41,169 --> 00:48:43,422
if they thought you killed
three little kids."
793
00:48:43,589 --> 00:48:45,716
And I said, "Why would they think you,
of all people?"
794
00:48:45,882 --> 00:48:49,094
And he goes, "I'm-- Because I'm weird,
I guess, you know." And I was like--
795
00:48:49,261 --> 00:48:51,054
I Was like, "Well, did you kill them?"
796
00:48:51,221 --> 00:48:54,850
He said, "Well, no! I wouldn't do
something like that," like I was stupid.
797
00:48:55,017 --> 00:48:58,395
And he was just like any other kid
his age, you know.
798
00:48:58,604 --> 00:49:00,355
He was just a normal kid.
799
00:49:00,522 --> 00:49:01,940
WOMAN:
Any other contact with Damien?
800
00:49:02,149 --> 00:49:03,442
None at all.
Okay.
801
00:49:03,650 --> 00:49:09,823
I was just a big liar,
and I really was just a big liar.
802
00:49:10,532 --> 00:49:13,952
STIDHAM:
I've spent a lot of the last
17 years looking back
803
00:49:14,161 --> 00:49:17,539
at what I should have done
and what I could have done.
804
00:49:17,873 --> 00:49:21,918
You know, it would be easy for me
to say I did the best I could.
805
00:49:22,127 --> 00:49:25,672
But I didn't.
There's no substitute for experience,
806
00:49:25,881 --> 00:49:29,760
and it's hard to look back.
807
00:49:34,348 --> 00:49:36,433
[Hr]
808
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,228
JONES:
It was before the trial when
Mr. Fogleman was leaving my office,
809
00:49:40,437 --> 00:49:45,484
I stopped him in the hallway,
and I asked him, "Is this actually Satanic?
810
00:49:45,651 --> 00:49:48,028
Is that what they're saying?"
811
00:49:48,862 --> 00:49:52,908
And he-- His response was no,
it's not Satanic.
812
00:49:53,116 --> 00:49:56,286
It's just murder.
813
00:49:57,454 --> 00:50:00,916
It's not something made up,
it's not something dreamed up,
814
00:50:01,124 --> 00:50:03,669
it's not a figment
of our imagination.
815
00:50:03,877 --> 00:50:08,882
The evidence was that this murder
had the trappings of an occult murder,
816
00:50:09,091 --> 00:50:10,801
a Satanic murder.
817
00:50:11,009 --> 00:50:16,640
When you take the crime scene,
the injuries to these kids,
818
00:50:16,848 --> 00:50:21,728
the testimony about sucking of blood,
and there's a transference of power
819
00:50:21,937 --> 00:50:24,314
from drinking of blood.
820
00:50:25,148 --> 00:50:28,276
Could you have any reason
to understand
821
00:50:28,485 --> 00:50:33,782
why someone would do that
to three 8-year-old boys?
822
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:40,330
Well, you know, everyone can say,
"Well, who did you tell?" Well, nobody.
823
00:50:40,539 --> 00:50:46,002
I think this case was never about justice
because they knew we didn't do this.
824
00:50:46,211 --> 00:50:48,547
Fogleman knew we did not do this.
825
00:50:49,089 --> 00:50:53,343
FOGLEMAN:
Is it a coincidence this knife
is found in the lake,
826
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:57,973
hidden behind
Jason Baldwin's house?
827
00:50:58,473 --> 00:51:01,768
And the same person that this knife
is found behind is the person
828
00:51:01,977 --> 00:51:04,438
that told Michael Carson
that he did it,
829
00:51:04,646 --> 00:51:08,275
and he sucked the blood out
of the kid's penis, is that a coincidence?
830
00:51:08,483 --> 00:51:11,695
RIORDAN:
If you ask me,
the single greatest offense
831
00:51:11,903 --> 00:51:16,700
committed in this case
is what was done by John Fogleman
832
00:51:16,908 --> 00:51:18,493
with the knife in the lake.
833
00:51:18,702 --> 00:51:22,080
LEVERITT:
Fogleman had divers search
a small lake behind the trailer park
834
00:51:22,289 --> 00:51:26,126
where Baldwin lived.
That search produced a knife.
835
00:51:27,085 --> 00:51:31,423
DOUGLAS:
To go out there in this big pond,
and to go right there,
836
00:51:31,631 --> 00:51:35,802
and in just less than 3O minutes
and come up with this-- This knife.
837
00:51:36,011 --> 00:51:39,222
I mean, you win the lottery.
838
00:51:39,389 --> 00:51:41,892
And then there's a reporter covering it.
839
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:46,938
RIORDAN:
We interviewed and have
the declaration of the diver.
840
00:51:47,147 --> 00:51:51,860
He said that he was given
a description of the knife
841
00:51:52,068 --> 00:51:55,030
and where it would be located.
842
00:51:55,238 --> 00:51:58,867
The press said they were told--
And we have the reporter.
843
00:51:59,075 --> 00:52:02,078
"Come to the lake,
we are about to make a discovery."
844
00:52:04,414 --> 00:52:08,210
The prosecution knew the knife
was in the lake.
845
00:52:08,418 --> 00:52:11,463
Nothing wrong with that.
You have an informant, they tell you:
846
00:52:11,671 --> 00:52:15,383
"Oh, the crime was committed and
we know where the murder weapon is.
847
00:52:15,592 --> 00:52:18,303
They committed the crime
and they threw it in the lake."
848
00:52:18,512 --> 00:52:22,015
The thing is that informant
is of critical importance.
849
00:52:22,224 --> 00:52:24,684
They're the one
who connects it to the crime.
850
00:52:24,893 --> 00:52:28,438
They're the one who allows you
to say it was the murder weapon.
851
00:52:28,647 --> 00:52:32,275
Why don't you call
that informant at trial?
852
00:52:32,484 --> 00:52:36,571
Why instead do you tell a lie,
as John Fogleman did,
853
00:52:36,780 --> 00:52:41,076
and say, "I just had a hunch
it was in the lake"?
854
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:46,706
The reason is that John Fogleman
had been told how it got in the lake.
855
00:52:46,915 --> 00:52:49,251
It was thrown in the lake
by Jason's mother.
856
00:52:49,459 --> 00:52:53,713
All I know is my son is innocent,
and he has been quiet.
857
00:52:53,922 --> 00:52:57,384
RIORDAN:
And so there's a connection to Jason.
Why not bring it forward?
858
00:52:57,592 --> 00:53:00,637
Because the same people
who told them that it was in the lake
859
00:53:00,846 --> 00:53:05,267
let him know that it was thrown
into the lake a year before the crime.
860
00:53:06,685 --> 00:53:10,063
He knew that knife in the lake
had nothing to do with the crime
861
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:13,191
because he had been told
when it was thrown in the lake.
862
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:20,240
This knife, state's exhibit 77,
caused those injuries right there.
863
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,119
Dash, dash, dash.
864
00:53:25,287 --> 00:53:27,956
FRENCH:
I think the knife that was
in the courtroom was the one
865
00:53:28,164 --> 00:53:32,294
that was used on the Byers boy.
866
00:53:34,170 --> 00:53:36,172
I still think that.
867
00:53:36,381 --> 00:53:40,552
People that found the bodies
and saw the wounds
868
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,430
said that it appeared
to be cult-related.
869
00:53:43,597 --> 00:53:48,059
Serrations are consistent with
being inflicted with this type of knife.
870
00:53:48,226 --> 00:53:51,771
The only way you can tell
if a serrated knife has been used
871
00:53:51,980 --> 00:53:55,442
is by looking for the serrations
that rub across the skin.
872
00:53:56,443 --> 00:53:59,362
STIDHAM:
Arkansas is one of the last
remaining states
873
00:53:59,571 --> 00:54:02,574
that has a prosecutor-controlled
crime lab.
874
00:54:02,782 --> 00:54:06,870
What that means is
the medical examiner is not a witness
875
00:54:07,078 --> 00:54:11,541
for what actually happened, but he is
an actual arm of the prosecution.
876
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:14,127
BRENT:
At this time I would ask that Dr. Peretti
877
00:54:14,336 --> 00:54:16,713
be allowed to show
the photographs and use...
878
00:54:16,922 --> 00:54:21,801
One of the key elements of the case that
we wanted to get into was Frank Peretti.
879
00:54:22,010 --> 00:54:25,847
Dr. Frank Peretti was the assistant
medical examiner at the time
880
00:54:26,056 --> 00:54:27,807
the autopsies were conducted.
881
00:54:28,016 --> 00:54:29,893
He's not actually board-certified.
882
00:54:30,101 --> 00:54:33,355
You get five chances to take
the board exams in Arkansas
883
00:54:33,563 --> 00:54:36,024
and Frank Peretti has
failed them twice.
884
00:54:36,191 --> 00:54:40,695
He's opted out of taking them again
for personal reasons.
885
00:54:41,529 --> 00:54:47,410
His medical testimony at the trial
created a picture in the jury's mind
886
00:54:47,619 --> 00:54:51,539
of a ritualistic, sexual murder.
887
00:54:51,748 --> 00:54:56,419
These type of injuries we commonly see
in the female rape victim.
888
00:54:56,628 --> 00:54:59,297
Trying to spread the legs
for penetration.
889
00:54:59,506 --> 00:55:04,886
The anal orifice was dilated, it could be
from putting an object in the anus.
890
00:55:05,095 --> 00:55:08,223
Those types of injuries
we generally see in children
891
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:10,934
who are forced to perform oral sex.
892
00:55:11,142 --> 00:55:14,521
There's evidence of genital mutilation.
This is the cutting wound here
893
00:55:14,729 --> 00:55:16,773
and the red is the shaft of the penis.
894
00:55:16,982 --> 00:55:21,027
Cutting wounds, superficial cuts,
gouging-type injuries.
895
00:55:21,236 --> 00:55:23,905
Multiple superficial, interrupted cuts,
multiple cuts.
896
00:55:24,114 --> 00:55:25,573
Stab wounds and cutting wounds.
897
00:55:25,740 --> 00:55:29,119
The knife is being twisted
and the victim is moving.
898
00:55:29,327 --> 00:55:31,454
Gouging where the skin
has been pulled out.
899
00:55:31,663 --> 00:55:34,958
Gouging wounds, cutting wounds,
stab wounds.
900
00:55:35,166 --> 00:55:39,045
Skin is going to tear,
skin has just been pulled away, torn out.
901
00:55:39,254 --> 00:55:40,338
[Hr]
902
00:55:40,505 --> 00:55:46,261
STIDHAM:
Those were the most horrifying
photographs that anyone could imagine.
903
00:55:46,469 --> 00:55:48,972
Those jurors were scared to death.
904
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:55,228
He is painting the picture in jury's minds
of an absolutely horrific murder.
905
00:55:55,437 --> 00:55:56,563
Cruel and unusual.
906
00:55:57,605 --> 00:56:00,775
It's what the jury hears coming out
of Frank Peretti's mouth
907
00:56:00,984 --> 00:56:05,864
more than anything that sentences
Damien Echols to death.
908
00:56:06,031 --> 00:56:07,866
We took our lead from Peretti himself,
909
00:56:08,033 --> 00:56:11,870
because during the trial he holds up
this textbook on forensic pathology.
910
00:56:12,078 --> 00:56:16,291
And it's written by Vincent DiMaio,
who is a renowned medical examiner
in Texas.
911
00:56:16,499 --> 00:56:21,004
BRENT:
I believe you indicated that Dr. DiMaio
and you are on a first-name basis.
912
00:56:21,212 --> 00:56:22,464
Yes, I did.
913
00:56:22,672 --> 00:56:25,800
JACKSON:
And so we went to DiMaio himself.
914
00:56:28,511 --> 00:56:34,976
DIMAIO:
The thing that's most interesting
in this case is that while the autopsies
915
00:56:35,185 --> 00:56:38,605
are done in exquisite detail,
916
00:56:38,813 --> 00:56:45,779
to me, the interpretation of the findings
are completely wrong.
917
00:56:46,821 --> 00:56:52,494
There is nothing here
that I would say was due to a knife.
918
00:56:52,660 --> 00:56:57,957
Either the cutting edge,
the tip or the back of a knife.
919
00:56:58,124 --> 00:57:01,795
If you think about how stupid it is,
they're saying they're killing these kids.
920
00:57:02,003 --> 00:57:07,383
And, you know, dragging the back
of a knife across them.
921
00:57:08,093 --> 00:57:10,178
When I looked at the photographs,
922
00:57:10,386 --> 00:57:13,932
it's obvious that by the appearance
of the wounds,
923
00:57:14,140 --> 00:57:16,142
they had occurred after death.
924
00:57:17,143 --> 00:57:22,524
If you're gonna torture and mutilate
someone, that's to cause pain to them.
925
00:57:23,024 --> 00:57:25,568
But these wounds are postmortem,
926
00:57:25,777 --> 00:57:30,156
so why are you torturing
and mutilating dead bodies?
927
00:57:30,365 --> 00:57:31,991
It doesn't make sense.
928
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,620
The irregular nature of the wounds,
some scratches.
929
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:39,582
There's no bleeding, there's no pattern.
930
00:57:39,791 --> 00:57:43,336
To me, it's obvious animal activity.
931
00:57:44,963 --> 00:57:49,008
GARNER:
We actually called the place back there
we used to ride our bikes
932
00:57:49,217 --> 00:57:53,805
Turtle City. That's just behind there,
because there were so many turtles.
933
00:57:53,972 --> 00:57:55,598
Everywhere, hundreds of them.
934
00:57:55,807 --> 00:57:59,644
Painted turtles, snapping turtles,
soft-shell turtles, all kinds of turtles.
935
00:57:59,853 --> 00:58:04,440
SEALS:
And they actually got such thing
called the alligator snapping turtle
936
00:58:04,607 --> 00:58:07,110
that could be found. I mean...
937
00:58:07,277 --> 00:58:10,238
Big turtles with humps in their back.
938
00:58:10,405 --> 00:58:12,824
That make them look
kind of like alligators.
939
00:58:13,032 --> 00:58:16,494
JAMIE:
Our house was up against a ditch,
so we would go back.
940
00:58:16,661 --> 00:58:20,206
There was a lot of them there,
turtles, fish and mud.
941
00:58:20,373 --> 00:58:23,668
You'd see an armadillo that fell
in the water or got hit by a car,
942
00:58:23,877 --> 00:58:27,338
and there'd be like four or five turtles
just chewing on it.
943
00:58:27,547 --> 00:58:33,052
RICHARDS:
Red flags should go up
when a body is pulled from the water.
944
00:58:34,846 --> 00:58:37,640
Especially in the month of May.
945
00:58:37,849 --> 00:58:40,143
At that latitude,
those reptiles are in high gear.
946
00:58:40,351 --> 00:58:45,106
They're feeding at their highest level,
their most voracious appetites.
947
00:58:52,614 --> 00:58:54,407
Just keep going, keep going.
948
00:58:57,577 --> 00:59:00,830
This is the bite mark I'm looking for.
949
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:03,041
[Hr]
950
00:59:05,543 --> 00:59:08,713
You can already start to see
the outline of the jaw.
951
00:59:17,555 --> 00:59:20,975
DIMAIO:
The animals usually start
with soft tissue.
952
00:59:23,144 --> 00:59:27,774
And the scrotum and the skin around
the penis is soft and they're coming off,
953
00:59:27,982 --> 00:59:32,654
so the animal doesn't have to
go against the body mass itself,
954
00:59:32,862 --> 00:59:35,698
but goes at the things
that are dangled in front of it.
955
00:59:40,495 --> 00:59:46,876
And then they'll go to things like lips
and the tip of the nose and the ears.
956
00:59:52,674 --> 00:59:57,011
What you're dealing with
is a horrendous crime.
957
00:59:57,220 --> 01:00:02,183
Three young boys
murdered in cold blood.
958
01:00:02,392 --> 01:00:05,186
Just that alone upsets people.
959
01:00:05,395 --> 01:00:10,858
You look at the bodies and there's
these savage injuries all over.
960
01:00:11,067 --> 01:00:18,032
It affects people emotionally
and it warps their judgment.
961
01:00:20,326 --> 01:00:25,081
And then someone says,
"Maybe it's Satanic!"
962
01:00:25,290 --> 01:00:29,836
And they say, "Well, the only type
of person who would do this
963
01:00:30,044 --> 01:00:33,256
would be someone like that."
964
01:00:33,464 --> 01:00:35,550
JACKSON:
We didn't want just one opinion.
965
01:00:35,717 --> 01:00:38,303
We thought the best thing to do
was basically to get
966
01:00:38,469 --> 01:00:42,390
six or seven of the very best people,
get a wide range of views.
967
01:00:42,598 --> 01:00:46,686
Every single one of the independent
experts that we approached
968
01:00:46,894 --> 01:00:49,647
came out with the same findings.
969
01:00:49,856 --> 01:00:53,192
BADEN:
There's no evidence that these injuries
occurred while they were alive.
970
01:00:53,401 --> 01:00:57,989
There's no evidence that,
as the medical examiner testified,
971
01:00:58,197 --> 01:01:03,286
they were sexually assaulted,
pulled up by the ears, fellatio involved.
972
01:01:03,453 --> 01:01:06,789
The problem is bad science
drives out good science.
973
01:01:06,998 --> 01:01:10,626
You don't have to be a rocket scientist
or a forensic dentist
974
01:01:10,793 --> 01:01:14,589
to look at that serrations on the back
of that knife and say
975
01:01:14,797 --> 01:01:17,925
that that knife made these marks.
I mean, give me a break.
976
01:01:18,134 --> 01:01:21,971
That is the most ridiculous statement
that I've ever heard.
977
01:01:22,180 --> 01:01:25,433
And to sell that to a jury
is unconscionable.
978
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:30,730
JACKSON:
We flew several of these forensic
pathologists down to Arkansas
979
01:01:30,938 --> 01:01:33,608
to meet with Dr. Peretti face-to-face.
980
01:01:33,816 --> 01:01:37,320
Dr. Peretti listened patiently
and nodded his head.
981
01:01:37,528 --> 01:01:39,322
And said he would consider all this.
982
01:01:39,489 --> 01:01:42,658
But he'd concluded that this couldn't
have been caused by a turtle,
983
01:01:42,825 --> 01:01:44,911
and that's kind of where
he drew his line.
984
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:47,080
Now here all this
information comes in.
985
01:01:47,288 --> 01:01:49,916
I start seeing a totally
different kind of situation.
986
01:01:50,124 --> 01:01:51,918
This is not a lust murder
987
01:01:52,126 --> 01:01:56,047
where the killer is going after
the genital areas of the victim.
988
01:01:56,255 --> 01:02:00,718
This is what's starting to develop to me
as a personal-cause homicide
989
01:02:00,927 --> 01:02:05,306
directed at these children, but maybe
one more than-- More than others.
990
01:02:06,224 --> 01:02:08,935
In all probability this person
would have been interviewed.
991
01:02:09,143 --> 01:02:12,230
Should have been by now,
because he would be the logical person.
992
01:02:12,438 --> 01:02:15,066
There's a connection with the victims.
993
01:02:19,821 --> 01:02:23,533
DAMIEN:
The person who killed those three kids
is still out there walking on the street.
994
01:02:23,741 --> 01:02:27,662
To me, that would seem like
the highest priority. Not this case.
995
01:02:27,870 --> 01:02:31,040
Not me, Jason or Jessie.
You know, don't get me wrong,
996
01:02:31,249 --> 01:02:33,751
we're thankful for the support
that people give us.
997
01:02:34,544 --> 01:02:37,004
But the main thing
I would be thinking about
998
01:02:37,171 --> 01:02:42,218
is there's someone who killed three kids
still living in my neighborhood.
999
01:02:42,385 --> 01:02:44,679
[Hr]
1000
01:02:44,846 --> 01:02:47,598
JACKSON:
If you disregard the state's
Satanic ritual theory,
1001
01:02:47,807 --> 01:02:51,269
the entire nature
of the crime changes.
1002
01:02:51,477 --> 01:02:56,983
It starts you thinking, "Well, maybe we're
not looking for these extreme suspects.
1003
01:02:57,191 --> 01:03:02,238
We're looking for someone
who's kind of ordinary, invisible."
1004
01:03:03,448 --> 01:03:08,244
So at that point we thought we should
put more funding into the DNA testing.
1005
01:03:08,453 --> 01:03:11,747
HORGAN:
We're getting packages and shipments
of all sorts of DNA samples
1006
01:03:11,956 --> 01:03:15,668
that we're then forwarding
on to our DNA expert.
1007
01:03:15,877 --> 01:03:18,504
RIORDAN:
Out there was a process
that was going on
1008
01:03:18,713 --> 01:03:22,258
that either would be the impetus
for exoneration
1009
01:03:23,050 --> 01:03:25,928
or would be the state's last chance
1010
01:03:26,137 --> 01:03:30,850
to demonstrate in this
highly controversial case
that he was good for it.
1011
01:03:31,559 --> 01:03:33,394
And Damien's reaction to that was
1012
01:03:33,603 --> 01:03:38,065
that he was absolutely adamant
about the DNA testing.
1013
01:03:38,858 --> 01:03:42,695
JACKSON:
Of all the samples and all the various
hairs and things that got tested,
1014
01:03:42,904 --> 01:03:46,949
there was nothing,
none of the DNA came back.
1015
01:03:47,158 --> 01:03:49,785
Nothing matched Damien,
Jason or Jessie.
1016
01:03:51,913 --> 01:03:55,416
What was interesting, however,
were some unknown hairs.
1017
01:03:55,625 --> 01:03:57,376
There was one hair in particular
1018
01:03:57,543 --> 01:04:01,047
that was in the binding
of one of the ligatures.
1019
01:04:01,714 --> 01:04:03,883
The boys had their hands
tied with shoelaces,
1020
01:04:04,091 --> 01:04:07,261
and right in the middle of a knot
that had been tightened,
1021
01:04:07,470 --> 01:04:09,347
there was a hair jammed
in that knot.
1022
01:04:09,555 --> 01:04:14,644
STIDHAM:
Had the hair been located anywhere
other than inside a ligature binding,
1023
01:04:14,852 --> 01:04:18,856
I would say, you know,
it's not as significant as it could be.
1024
01:04:19,023 --> 01:04:22,944
But given its location, I think
it's particularly damning evidence.
1025
01:04:23,110 --> 01:04:26,697
JACKSON:
The hair tied into Michael Moore's
ligature had to come from somebody.
1026
01:04:26,906 --> 01:04:30,576
So over Christmas, 2006,
we studied John Douglas's report
1027
01:04:30,743 --> 01:04:34,372
and started to think about
who that foreign profile could belong to.
1028
01:04:34,539 --> 01:04:39,252
LORRI:
"This crime was not nearly
so convoluted nor as twisted
1029
01:04:39,418 --> 01:04:41,379
as the public were led to believe.
1030
01:04:41,546 --> 01:04:45,424
John Douglas said that this
is most likely a personal-cause killing.
1031
01:04:45,591 --> 01:04:48,636
That is to say, the perpetrator knew
one or more of the victims
1032
01:04:48,844 --> 01:04:53,683
and had good reason, at least
in his own mind, to act out violently.
1033
01:04:53,891 --> 01:04:56,561
We know the boys were bashed
on the head, tied up,
1034
01:04:56,769 --> 01:04:59,105
and thrown into the drainage ditch."
1035
01:04:59,313 --> 01:05:02,858
The children were submerged in water,
which is an unnecessary act
1036
01:05:03,025 --> 01:05:05,319
if you're a total--
You know, total stranger.
1037
01:05:05,486 --> 01:05:09,699
And an unnecessary act to throw
the bicycles into the bayou.
1038
01:05:09,907 --> 01:05:14,078
LORRI: "We know that all
of this could have happened
in the space of just 2O minutes.
1039
01:05:14,287 --> 01:05:16,455
It almost certainly happened
before dark,
1040
01:05:16,664 --> 01:05:20,293
which means the crime in all likelihood
occurred between the hours
1041
01:05:20,501 --> 01:05:24,171
of 6:30 and 7:45 p.m.
1042
01:05:24,380 --> 01:05:27,133
Who knew these boys
well enough to kill them?
1043
01:05:27,341 --> 01:05:29,010
Who was out looking for them?
1044
01:05:29,176 --> 01:05:32,638
From where I stand we are pretty much
left with a list of three people.
1045
01:05:32,847 --> 01:05:37,226
Mark Byers, Terry Hobbs,
and Todd Moore.
1046
01:05:38,144 --> 01:05:41,564
Mark Byers began looking
for Chris from 6 p.m.
1047
01:05:42,356 --> 01:05:45,860
Terry Hobbs was looking
for Stevie Branch from 5 p.m.
1048
01:05:46,027 --> 01:05:48,112
Todd Moore was out of town.
1049
01:05:48,321 --> 01:05:50,197
We're left with two stepfathers.
1050
01:05:50,406 --> 01:05:53,868
But only one of them has ever been
scrutinized as a suspect.
1051
01:05:54,076 --> 01:05:58,164
Byers once referred to himself
as the giant red herring of this case,
1052
01:05:58,372 --> 01:06:01,125
and I think
he was speaking the truth.
1053
01:06:01,334 --> 01:06:04,503
That is why I am interested
in Terry Hobbs.
1054
01:06:05,671 --> 01:06:07,965
Hope this helps to explain
where I'm coming from.
1055
01:06:08,174 --> 01:06:11,177
Sending much love to you, Fran."
1056
01:06:12,678 --> 01:06:15,640
JACKSON:
We were working with a private
investigator, Rachael Geiser,
1057
01:06:15,848 --> 01:06:18,434
and we asked Rachael
to start to investigate Terry.
1058
01:06:19,935 --> 01:06:23,439
I'd come in to work daily,
and I would have
1059
01:06:23,606 --> 01:06:26,108
all of these e-mails from Fran about:
1060
01:06:26,275 --> 01:06:28,778
"Here's what we need to do,
thanks for what you sent."
1061
01:06:28,944 --> 01:06:31,280
We really didn't know
a whole lot about Stevie
1062
01:06:31,489 --> 01:06:33,866
because Stevie's life
was kind of confusing.
1063
01:06:34,075 --> 01:06:37,995
PERETTI:
These are the photographs
of Steven Branch.
1064
01:06:38,204 --> 01:06:42,583
GEISER:
You had his father, Stevie,
his biological father.
1065
01:06:42,750 --> 01:06:43,959
PERETTI:
Here we can see...
1066
01:06:44,126 --> 01:06:46,462
GEISER:
You had Pam, and then you had Terry.
1067
01:06:46,671 --> 01:06:51,425
Other than the fact that nothing's there,
there's nothing that would raise any flags.
1068
01:06:51,634 --> 01:06:54,762
JACKSON:
And so getting Terry's DNA
became a priority for us now,
1069
01:06:54,970 --> 01:07:00,726
and the brief to Rachael was really
get Terry's DNA without him knowing.
1070
01:07:03,396 --> 01:07:05,731
GEISER:
Saturday morning,
it was raining out, I remember,
1071
01:07:05,898 --> 01:07:07,733
and we showed up
at his house early,
1072
01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:11,445
and he opened the door,
and we told him who we were.
1073
01:07:11,654 --> 01:07:13,447
He said,
"I've been expecting y'all."
1074
01:07:13,656 --> 01:07:16,200
I'll never forget it, he was like,
"Come on in."
1075
01:07:16,409 --> 01:07:19,745
I remember we sat there with him
for a while, and he, you know...
1076
01:07:19,954 --> 01:07:22,707
He was a likable-enough guy,
he really was.
1077
01:07:22,915 --> 01:07:25,543
He talked about their life
and how their life was.
1078
01:07:25,751 --> 01:07:29,296
He didn't talk a whole lot about Pam.
I think they were fighting at the time.
1079
01:07:29,505 --> 01:07:32,717
And he didn't talk, really,
about Amanda at all.
1080
01:07:32,883 --> 01:07:35,261
He interviewed with us,
told us where he was.
1081
01:07:35,428 --> 01:07:39,098
He said that was the first time
he'd ever told anyone his whereabouts.
1082
01:07:39,306 --> 01:07:42,685
So we waited in the living room
while he was in the bathroom, I assume,
1083
01:07:42,893 --> 01:07:47,523
and that's when I took the cigarette
butts out of the ashtray. Yeah.
1084
01:07:48,441 --> 01:07:51,235
RIORDAN:
We got the fax,
and I'm reading the fax,
1085
01:07:51,444 --> 01:07:56,741
and I'm reading the fax,
and at some point I said, "Holy fuck."
1086
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:04,165
We all were just kind of stunned to see
this very dramatic DNA result.
1087
01:08:05,750 --> 01:08:08,627
GEISER:
Terry comes in, sits down,
and we tell him, you know...
1088
01:08:08,836 --> 01:08:12,298
LAX:
The DNA that was found
on the hair doesn't match
1089
01:08:12,506 --> 01:08:14,967
Damien or Jason or Jessie.
1090
01:08:15,176 --> 01:08:19,847
So it's somebody else's DNA.
They don't know whose?
1091
01:08:21,932 --> 01:08:23,768
Tell me.
LAX: Yours.
1092
01:08:23,976 --> 01:08:26,562
No.
LAX: Yes, it is.
1093
01:08:26,771 --> 01:08:28,272
No, that's wrong.
1094
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:33,277
GEISER: We had to get him to
come in because we knew that he
didn't voluntarily give us this DNA.
1095
01:08:33,444 --> 01:08:36,530
We wanted to get either a voluntary
sample or we need to see him
1096
01:08:36,739 --> 01:08:40,701
do something, you know,
that would have left his DNA.
1097
01:08:40,910 --> 01:08:45,790
Terry Hobbs would not, at any point,
give me his DNA voluntarily, no.
1098
01:08:46,248 --> 01:08:48,876
REPORTER 1:
The biggest bombshell
of the new defense investigation
1099
01:08:49,084 --> 01:08:52,880
is that an unexplained hair that could
be from another victim's stepfather
1100
01:08:53,088 --> 01:08:55,424
was found on shoelaces
at the crime scene.
1101
01:08:55,633 --> 01:08:58,969
REPORTER 2:
They say the DNA matches victim
Stevie Branch's stepfather, Terry Hobbs.
1102
01:08:59,178 --> 01:09:02,014
Hobbs tells me tonight, quote,
"I don't have anything to hide.
1103
01:09:02,181 --> 01:09:03,432
I'll answer any questions."
1104
01:09:03,641 --> 01:09:08,729
Mr. Hobbs, do you feel like
the attorneys are accusing
you of this crime?
1105
01:09:08,938 --> 01:09:10,523
The answer to that
would be no.
1106
01:09:10,731 --> 01:09:14,068
Is it possible, Mr. Hobbs,
that that was your hair?
1107
01:09:14,276 --> 01:09:20,616
Sure, it was his son, Steven Branch,
1108
01:09:20,783 --> 01:09:25,955
who was murdered, and he's had
to deal with this for the last 15 years.
1109
01:09:27,081 --> 01:09:29,083
[TRAIN HORN
BLARING IN DISTANCE]
1110
01:09:38,217 --> 01:09:39,969
[SNIFFLING]
1111
01:09:40,135 --> 01:09:43,973
AMANDA:
The first tattoos I got
was my parents' name...
1112
01:09:45,766 --> 01:09:49,228
because I love them
more than anything in the world.
1113
01:09:49,436 --> 01:09:53,315
I've abused drugs for many years
and I'm only 21
1114
01:09:53,524 --> 01:09:56,360
and I feel like it's because
I'm trying to hide.
1115
01:09:56,527 --> 01:10:00,573
I did it to suppress something,
to cover something up.
1116
01:10:00,781 --> 01:10:03,367
And where are your kids
during this time, at your mom's?
1117
01:10:03,534 --> 01:10:06,328
Mm-hm. They live with my mom.
1118
01:10:06,537 --> 01:10:10,624
And so why don't you stay
with your mom?
1119
01:10:10,833 --> 01:10:12,376
She thinks I'm too wild.
1120
01:10:13,085 --> 01:10:16,463
So she says, "You can't stay here
because you're too wild"?
1121
01:10:18,799 --> 01:10:21,427
And I'm hung out on a limb.
1122
01:10:21,635 --> 01:10:24,013
What's that mean,
you're hung out on a limb?
1123
01:10:24,221 --> 01:10:29,518
That I'm going crazy the way
she did when Stevie died.
1124
01:10:30,853 --> 01:10:32,855
[Hr]
1125
01:10:35,524 --> 01:10:38,193
HORGAN:
Once Terry Hobbs surfaced,
it certainly advanced things.
1126
01:10:38,402 --> 01:10:40,070
It helped shift the momentum.
1127
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:43,407
JACKSON:
The West Memphis
Police Department realized
1128
01:10:43,616 --> 01:10:45,910
that they had never actually
interviewed him,
1129
01:10:46,118 --> 01:10:49,705
despite the fact that he was
a stepfather of one of the victims.
1130
01:10:50,372 --> 01:10:55,294
They quickly conducted an interview
with Terry Hobbs in 2007.
1131
01:10:55,502 --> 01:10:58,339
Anything unusual
when you got home, at all?
1132
01:10:58,547 --> 01:11:00,716
Nothing other than, uh,
Stevie wasn't home.
1133
01:11:00,925 --> 01:11:05,220
Terry Hobbs said to everyone
that he was very concerned
1134
01:11:05,387 --> 01:11:08,599
when Stevie Branch didn't
come home at 4:30 that night.
1135
01:11:08,807 --> 01:11:14,104
If he was so worried at 4:30,
why didn't he call Stevie's mom?
1136
01:11:14,313 --> 01:11:19,944
When he does finally tell her,
9:00, almost five hours later.
1137
01:11:20,152 --> 01:11:25,074
This person knows that he will be
a logical suspect at some point,
1138
01:11:25,282 --> 01:11:27,701
but what he needs,
he needs time on his hands.
1139
01:11:27,910 --> 01:11:29,745
He needs to establish an alibi.
1140
01:11:29,954 --> 01:11:32,122
JACKSON:
We studied his movements that night.
1141
01:11:32,331 --> 01:11:35,834
He had spent some period of time
on the evening of May the 5th
1142
01:11:36,043 --> 01:11:38,671
in the house of David Jacoby,
who was a friend of his.
1143
01:11:38,879 --> 01:11:41,423
And I asked David, I said,
"Would you go help me?"
1144
01:11:41,632 --> 01:11:45,636
He was with me probably
2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.
1145
01:11:45,844 --> 01:11:47,012
May the 6th.
1146
01:11:47,221 --> 01:11:50,015
DOUGLAS:
Jacoby here is kind of a witness.
1147
01:11:50,224 --> 01:11:53,686
He never had this window
of opportunity to perpetrate
a crime like that
1148
01:11:53,894 --> 01:11:57,314
because he was with him
for such a long period of time.
1149
01:11:58,107 --> 01:12:02,403
JACKSON:
We got a sample
of David Jacoby's DNA voluntarily...
1150
01:12:04,697 --> 01:12:07,491
and the analysis came back to say
that another hair
1151
01:12:07,658 --> 01:12:11,203
that was found on a tree stump by
the ditch where the bodies were found
1152
01:12:11,370 --> 01:12:15,207
was consistent
with David Jacoby's DNA.
1153
01:12:16,542 --> 01:12:19,294
PAM:
I wasn't even aware
that he went to David Jacoby's.
1154
01:12:19,503 --> 01:12:24,049
According to Terry, he was walking the
streets and searching the whole night.
1155
01:12:24,258 --> 01:12:28,095
So that was news to me
when I found out.
1156
01:12:28,595 --> 01:12:31,348
Is there anything
you can think of that
we hadn't gone over?
1157
01:12:31,515 --> 01:12:34,518
That we hadn't asked,
something you remembered
through the years?
1158
01:12:34,685 --> 01:12:37,855
HORGAN:
You'd thought they would do
a meaningful interview with Terry Hobbs.
1159
01:12:38,063 --> 01:12:41,442
It was as if they were sitting out
on the back porch just sharing a beer.
1160
01:12:41,608 --> 01:12:44,611
"We know you didn't
have much to do with this.
1161
01:12:44,778 --> 01:12:49,116
Just, you know, for old time's sake,
why don't you describe again
1162
01:12:49,283 --> 01:12:51,535
how you didn't have anything
to do with this?"
1163
01:12:51,744 --> 01:12:54,705
It didn't have the atmosphere
of a serious interrogation at all.
1164
01:12:54,872 --> 01:13:00,044
You know, I don't know what happened
out there in them woods that night.
1165
01:13:00,210 --> 01:13:02,379
JACKSON:
Mike Allen, the lead investigator
at the time,
1166
01:13:02,546 --> 01:13:04,673
and now the sheriff
of Crittenden County,
1167
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:08,177
issued a statement saying
Terry Hobbs was not a suspect then
1168
01:13:08,385 --> 01:13:10,345
and he's not a suspect now.
1169
01:13:10,554 --> 01:13:15,225
A question that has got to be asked
is that why have they so staunchly
1170
01:13:15,434 --> 01:13:19,188
refused to regard him
as a person of interest?
1171
01:13:19,354 --> 01:13:23,650
There.
Terry, appreciate it, man.
1172
01:13:27,946 --> 01:13:32,576
SCHECK:
As we sit here today, there are 272
post-conviction DNA exonerations.
1173
01:13:32,785 --> 01:13:36,038
DNA is the essential element
to prove their innocence,
1174
01:13:36,246 --> 01:13:41,502
and these people have done
more than 3500 years in prison.
1175
01:13:41,710 --> 01:13:45,631
On the other hand,
there are many, many cases, urn,
1176
01:13:45,798 --> 01:13:49,551
where there's been DNA that's helpful,
as in the West Memphis Three case,
1177
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:54,556
because it does shed light
on other suspects.
1178
01:13:54,765 --> 01:13:59,478
And it does put particular significance
on the absence of evidence.
1179
01:13:59,686 --> 01:14:02,439
There's an old phrase
in the forensic science business
1180
01:14:02,648 --> 01:14:06,276
that absence of evidence
is not evidence of absence.
1181
01:14:06,485 --> 01:14:08,070
Yeah, that's true.
1182
01:14:08,278 --> 01:14:11,323
On the other hand,
when you have DNA testing,
1183
01:14:11,532 --> 01:14:16,411
and you've gone through every piece
of trace evidence at a crime scene,
1184
01:14:16,620 --> 01:14:19,164
and you find nothing
that links the defendants
1185
01:14:19,373 --> 01:14:22,543
who have been convicted
to the crime, that is significant.
1186
01:14:22,751 --> 01:14:24,503
[Hr]
1187
01:14:24,670 --> 01:14:28,173
REPORTER:
This may be Damien Echols'
final appeal at the state level.
1188
01:14:28,382 --> 01:14:31,927
If his arguments are denied,
the case then jumps into federal court.
1189
01:14:32,136 --> 01:14:35,139
A decision is expected
in about a week.
1190
01:14:35,305 --> 01:14:37,933
JACKSON:
All the investigative findings,
the scientific results,
1191
01:14:38,142 --> 01:14:43,939
including the DNA, all of that is going
to be presented to Judge Burnett.
1192
01:14:44,148 --> 01:14:50,112
Finally, Judge Burnett can consider
this case with all this new information
1193
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:54,658
that wasn't available to him
or the prosecution back in 1994.
1194
01:14:54,867 --> 01:14:58,120
And so we were looking forward
to having him reevaluate the case.
1195
01:14:58,328 --> 01:15:01,373
We really had high hopes.
1196
01:15:02,166 --> 01:15:06,670
RIORDAN:
We wanted to give the attorney general
some sense that it was coming.
1197
01:15:06,879 --> 01:15:09,047
We told him that there'd be
these DNA results
1198
01:15:09,256 --> 01:15:10,966
and we got into a discussion.
1199
01:15:11,175 --> 01:15:13,385
What would you have
to show to get a new trial?
1200
01:15:13,552 --> 01:15:18,640
And there was a point of laughter
where one of them said:
1201
01:15:18,849 --> 01:15:22,269
"We're gonna set this bar
as high as we possibly can.
1202
01:15:22,477 --> 01:15:25,314
Which is to say, we're gonna try
and get a court to rule
1203
01:15:25,522 --> 01:15:32,279
that it is really impossible to ever win
under the Arkansas DNA statute."
1204
01:15:37,409 --> 01:15:42,789
People ask us what we're gonna do
whenever I'm out, when we're together.
1205
01:15:42,956 --> 01:15:45,792
And we do talk about that. Um...
1206
01:15:46,418 --> 01:15:50,505
For Lorri and I, life isn't something that
will happen one day down the road.
1207
01:15:50,714 --> 01:15:53,133
You know, we're together now, here.
1208
01:15:53,342 --> 01:15:56,637
We're not just in a state
of suspended animation, waiting.
1209
01:15:56,845 --> 01:15:59,556
LORRI:
He was 21, I guess, when I met him.
1210
01:15:59,765 --> 01:16:03,393
He hadn't yet really started studying
at that point, so it was kind of funny.
1211
01:16:03,602 --> 01:16:07,356
You know, I was in a different place
in my life, and-- But now,
1212
01:16:07,564 --> 01:16:10,943
I mean, I would ask him for advice
before I would ask anybody.
1213
01:16:12,402 --> 01:16:18,533
I send him a lot of used books,
and it is really fascinating to look at.
1214
01:16:18,742 --> 01:16:22,913
Because when I'm reading a book
or when he's reading,
1215
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:25,916
then we're going through--
As everyone does in their life.
1216
01:16:26,083 --> 01:16:27,918
--You're going through
specific things.
1217
01:16:29,086 --> 01:16:32,923
OPERATOR: [OVER PHONE]:
You have 90 seconds left on this call.
1218
01:16:33,131 --> 01:16:36,760
DAMIEN:
Uh, I don't normally read a lot of fiction
anymore. I haven't for several years,
1219
01:16:36,969 --> 01:16:39,096
but a couple of days ago,
1220
01:16:39,304 --> 01:16:41,348
someone sent me
the new Stephen King book.
1221
01:16:41,556 --> 01:16:45,352
You know, I started reading his books
when I was probably 10 or 11 years old.
1222
01:16:46,186 --> 01:16:49,106
People have always
undervalued him.
1223
01:16:49,314 --> 01:16:52,442
You know,
they look at him as this, um, hack.
1224
01:16:52,651 --> 01:16:56,488
This hack writer who churns out
horror novels.
1225
01:16:56,697 --> 01:16:59,741
In all of his books at the end,
he always addresses the reader.
1226
01:16:59,950 --> 01:17:03,370
You know, he thanks you for going on
this voyage with him,
1227
01:17:03,578 --> 01:17:05,998
and so I wanted to read it to you.
1228
01:17:06,206 --> 01:17:09,376
"All right, I think we've been down here
in the dark long enough.
1229
01:17:09,584 --> 01:17:12,045
There's a whole other world upstairs.
1230
01:17:12,254 --> 01:17:13,755
Take my hand, constant reader,
1231
01:17:13,964 --> 01:17:16,967
and I'll be happy to lead you
back into the sunshine.
1232
01:17:17,134 --> 01:17:18,260
[Hr]
1233
01:17:18,427 --> 01:17:22,597
I'm happy to go there because I believe
most people are essentially good.
1234
01:17:22,806 --> 01:17:24,975
I know that I am.
1235
01:17:25,183 --> 01:17:28,228
It's you I'm not entirely sure of."
1236
01:17:33,025 --> 01:17:35,152
REPORTER 1:
A judge says no to new trial.
1237
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:40,198
REPORTER 2:
Judge Burnett made it clear that the DNA
evidence isn't enough for a new trial
1238
01:17:40,365 --> 01:17:43,035
or to overturn the conviction.
1239
01:17:43,201 --> 01:17:45,245
David Burnett wouldn't hear
the new evidence.
1240
01:17:45,412 --> 01:17:47,748
He complete--
He denied it without even hearing it.
1241
01:17:49,416 --> 01:17:54,212
What can you do? I mean, in our minds,
we started to entertain the idea
1242
01:17:54,421 --> 01:17:56,798
that Damien might be executed.
1243
01:17:57,007 --> 01:18:02,137
BURNETT:
My life would have been a lot simpler
if I hadn't been involved in that case.
1244
01:18:02,346 --> 01:18:07,976
I had to fiddle with it for 18 years
and get beaten over the head by folks
1245
01:18:08,185 --> 01:18:10,645
that were opposed to what happened.
1246
01:18:10,854 --> 01:18:14,816
But I didn't pick and choose,
I just took what came down the pipe.
1247
01:18:15,025 --> 01:18:18,487
It's not unusual
for post-conviction motions
1248
01:18:18,653 --> 01:18:21,865
to be made in front of the judge
that originally heard the trial.
1249
01:18:22,032 --> 01:18:25,202
The theory behind that is the judge
who originally heard the trial
1250
01:18:25,369 --> 01:18:27,120
saw all the witnesses testify
1251
01:18:27,329 --> 01:18:30,082
and is in the best position
to evaluate the new evidence.
1252
01:18:30,290 --> 01:18:37,297
But all of us are victims of bias that
we don't even understand or know,
1253
01:18:37,506 --> 01:18:40,384
and sometimes you have
to abandon hypotheses
1254
01:18:40,592 --> 01:18:42,677
that you've relied on in the past
1255
01:18:42,886 --> 01:18:46,098
and try to freshly evaluate
the evidence.
1256
01:18:46,306 --> 01:18:51,269
All of this hoop-de-la about
newly discovered evidence.
1257
01:18:51,478 --> 01:18:53,438
There is no
newly discovered evidence.
1258
01:18:53,647 --> 01:18:59,945
All of the evidence that was found
originally at the trial scene.
1259
01:19:01,029 --> 01:19:03,031
[Hr]
1260
01:19:05,075 --> 01:19:07,661
JACKSON:
Judge David Burnett finally
decides to stand for Senate.
1261
01:19:08,245 --> 01:19:10,414
We hoped like hell
that he would get elected.
1262
01:19:10,580 --> 01:19:12,457
Because once he was elected
to Senate,
1263
01:19:12,624 --> 01:19:15,544
he was unable to have anything
to do with this case anymore.
1264
01:19:15,752 --> 01:19:17,754
[CROWD CHEERING]
1265
01:19:19,089 --> 01:19:22,384
ROLLINS:
So Judge Burnett heard
what he heard,
1266
01:19:22,592 --> 01:19:25,303
and he and his jury
made their decision.
1267
01:19:25,512 --> 01:19:29,224
It was up to people from all over
the world, and that would be you.
1268
01:19:29,433 --> 01:19:31,268
And the people next to you
right now,
1269
01:19:31,435 --> 01:19:35,772
coming together to make
some real justice happen.
1270
01:19:37,149 --> 01:19:40,068
I would like to read something
to you guys.
1271
01:19:42,571 --> 01:19:47,659
"I can't remember what it's like to walk
as a human being anymore.
1272
01:19:47,868 --> 01:19:51,997
It's been well over 16 years since
I've actually walked anywhere.
1273
01:19:53,665 --> 01:19:55,333
There are times when I've thought,
1274
01:19:55,917 --> 01:20:00,922
surely, someone is gonna put
a stop to this.
1275
01:20:01,131 --> 01:20:04,384
Oh, well, it does no good
to dwell on it.
1276
01:20:04,593 --> 01:20:09,514
Either I waste my energy by focusing
on things I cannot change,
1277
01:20:09,723 --> 01:20:14,686
or I conserve my energy, and
apply it to small things I can change."
1278
01:20:14,895 --> 01:20:19,900
Each small thing connects
to make a great, big thing.
1279
01:20:20,066 --> 01:20:23,862
And that big thing is
to bring those boys back home.
1280
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:25,906
This is something
I came across today
1281
01:20:26,072 --> 01:20:30,285
and it's just a small paragraph of one
of Damien's letters from this February.
1282
01:20:31,328 --> 01:20:37,501
"The thing I like most about time
is that it's not real. It's all in the head.
1283
01:20:37,667 --> 01:20:42,589
There's no such thing as the past,
it exists only in the memory.
1284
01:20:42,797 --> 01:20:47,093
There's no such thing as the future,
it exists only in our imagination.
1285
01:20:47,302 --> 01:20:51,806
If our watches were truly accurate,
the only thing they would ever say
1286
01:20:52,015 --> 01:20:54,601
is 'now."'
1287
01:20:54,768 --> 01:20:57,103
[CHEERING]
1288
01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:59,731
And that's what time it is. Now.
1289
01:21:00,774 --> 01:21:03,193
♪ Come gather 'round, people ♪
1290
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:06,238
♪ Wherever you roam ♪
1291
01:21:07,906 --> 01:21:10,242
♪ And admit that the waters ♪
1292
01:21:10,408 --> 01:21:12,786
♪ Around you have grown a'
1293
01:21:12,953 --> 01:21:16,706
♪ And accept that it soon
You'll be drenched to the bone r
1294
01:21:19,417 --> 01:21:23,797
♪ If your time to you
Is worth savin' I
1295
01:21:23,964 --> 01:21:28,468
♪ Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone a'
1296
01:21:28,635 --> 01:21:33,890
r For the times
They are a-changin' a'
1297
01:21:40,355 --> 01:21:45,318
r Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call 4'
1298
01:21:47,988 --> 01:21:52,492
♪ Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall a'
1299
01:21:52,659 --> 01:21:57,455
♪ For he who gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled a'
1300
01:21:58,915 --> 01:22:03,795
♪ There's a battle outside
And it's ragin' a'
1301
01:22:03,962 --> 01:22:08,383
♪ It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls a'
1302
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:14,139
♪ Oh, the times
They are a-changin' N
1303
01:22:20,979 --> 01:22:24,065
One day, I get a phone call
from my manager
1304
01:22:24,232 --> 01:22:26,651
saying Terry Hobbs is suing me.
1305
01:22:26,818 --> 01:22:29,904
LORRI:
"Dearest Lorri, are the Dixie Chicks
fighting this?
1306
01:22:30,113 --> 01:22:33,408
This is a great opportunity to give
Terry Hobbs his day in court,
1307
01:22:33,617 --> 01:22:36,953
get all the facts out in the open
and let a jury decide."
1308
01:22:37,162 --> 01:22:39,247
BAILIFF:
You swear to tell nothing but the truth,
1309
01:22:39,456 --> 01:22:42,083
so help you God?
I do.
1310
01:22:42,250 --> 01:22:44,336
DAVISON:
State your name for the record, sir.
1311
01:22:44,502 --> 01:22:45,503
Terry Hobbs.
1312
01:22:45,670 --> 01:22:47,213
DAWSON".
You can put your hand down now.
1313
01:22:47,380 --> 01:22:50,467
Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen
why you sued my client?
1314
01:22:50,634 --> 01:22:57,557
All of the emotions, distress,
the anger.
1315
01:23:00,685 --> 01:23:02,228
DAWSON".
That her statements caused you'?
1316
01:23:02,395 --> 01:23:04,105
Correct.
1317
01:23:04,272 --> 01:23:09,861
I didn't say anything about him.
I had no intentions of finger-pointing
at Terry Hobbs.
1318
01:23:10,070 --> 01:23:13,073
I don't even know
that Terry Hobbs did it.
1319
01:23:13,239 --> 01:23:16,534
I sort of asked my attorney,
"Why would he be doing this?"
1320
01:23:16,743 --> 01:23:20,580
He was confident
that he was gonna win
1321
01:23:20,789 --> 01:23:23,583
and he was gonna get
millions of dollars.
1322
01:23:23,792 --> 01:23:25,752
I think he's gutsy.
1323
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:30,423
He had to have been warned that if he
did that, he would have to be deposed,
1324
01:23:30,632 --> 01:23:33,176
which he was,
and have to answer questions.
1325
01:23:33,385 --> 01:23:35,470
JACKSON:
We gave Natalie's attorney,
D'Lesli Davis,
1326
01:23:35,679 --> 01:23:39,849
access to our investigative files
on Terry, his background,
1327
01:23:40,058 --> 01:23:43,311
his relationship with Stevie.
And it enabled them to basically
1328
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:47,649
sit him down
and to finally question him
1329
01:23:47,857 --> 01:23:52,904
in a way that he had never, ever been
questioned about this murder before.
1330
01:23:53,071 --> 01:23:58,451
Describe your reputation, other than just
"a good man." What else would it be?
1331
01:23:58,618 --> 01:24:03,248
A hard-working man, good dad,
good husband in the past.
1332
01:24:03,415 --> 01:24:04,791
Uh...
1333
01:24:04,958 --> 01:24:06,126
Pretty good man.
1334
01:24:06,334 --> 01:24:09,546
Are you an honest fellow?
I try my best.
1335
01:24:09,754 --> 01:24:12,716
Law-abiding man?
I do pretty good at it.
1336
01:24:14,509 --> 01:24:16,636
GEISER:
We started doing background
on Terry.
1337
01:24:16,845 --> 01:24:20,056
I went to Garland County because
I knew he had lived there before,
1338
01:24:20,265 --> 01:24:24,018
specifically to interview his ex-wife.
And it raised some flags at that point.
1339
01:24:24,185 --> 01:24:26,187
[Hr]
1340
01:24:32,610 --> 01:24:37,782
She told me he had gotten in trouble.
I went to the court records
1341
01:24:37,949 --> 01:24:41,703
in Garland County and was able to pull
that incident involving Mildred French.
1342
01:24:41,870 --> 01:24:46,541
Let me give you a minute to go through
the declaration of Mildred French.
1343
01:24:49,377 --> 01:24:51,129
All right.
D'LESLl: Have you read it?
1344
01:24:51,337 --> 01:24:52,380
No, I'm not going to.
1345
01:24:52,589 --> 01:24:54,591
Why not?
It don't mean nothing to me.
1346
01:24:54,799 --> 01:24:57,927
Why doesn't it mean anything to you?
It just don't.
1347
01:24:58,136 --> 01:25:01,514
Mildred French was a neighbor of yours
back in the '80s, wasn't she?
1348
01:25:01,723 --> 01:25:03,349
I don't remember.
1349
01:25:04,684 --> 01:25:07,645
D'LESLl:
Paragraph number four,
"On one occasion I heard a baby crying
1350
01:25:07,854 --> 01:25:12,609
and sounds that indicated to me
that Terry Hobbs was beating
his wife and/or his child."
1351
01:25:12,776 --> 01:25:15,904
She kind of let out a cry,
1352
01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:18,239
and then I heard the baby.
1353
01:25:18,448 --> 01:25:20,074
D'LESLl:
"I ran next door to Terry's unit
1354
01:25:20,283 --> 01:25:22,577
and rang the bell
to Terry Hobbs' residence."
1355
01:25:22,744 --> 01:25:24,537
He said it was none of my business,
1356
01:25:24,746 --> 01:25:27,665
and I said, "I'm making it my business,
you do it again."
1357
01:25:27,874 --> 01:25:29,834
I said,
"Because I've heard you before."
1358
01:25:30,001 --> 01:25:31,753
D'LESLl:
Do you recall she was your neighbor?
1359
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:33,129
Some old woman was.
1360
01:25:33,338 --> 01:25:35,673
"A few months later,
I worked outside in my yard.
1361
01:25:35,882 --> 01:25:39,344
I went inside my home to take a shower
and get cleaned up."
1362
01:25:39,552 --> 01:25:44,599
FRECH:
And I got out of the tub and when I was
reaching in to get the towel...
1363
01:25:44,808 --> 01:25:46,726
D'LESLl:
"Terry Hobbs, who had broken in
1364
01:25:46,935 --> 01:25:50,438
and somehow gotten upstairs
into my bathroom..."
1365
01:25:50,647 --> 01:25:54,359
I didn't see him come into the bathroom.
He just grabbed me on my breasts.
1366
01:25:54,567 --> 01:25:58,363
D'LESLl:
"I screamed at Terry loudly,
'What are you doing in my house?'
1367
01:25:58,571 --> 01:26:01,658
And screamed, 'Get out!"'
FRENCH: He said, "Shh! Shh!"
1368
01:26:01,866 --> 01:26:04,953
D'LESLl: "I kept repeating loudly."
FRENCH: "Get out of my house!"
1369
01:26:05,161 --> 01:26:09,290
D'LESLl:
"And ultimately Terry ran out of my home
and ran downstairs into his unit."
1370
01:26:09,499 --> 01:26:11,501
What is your recollection
of those events--?
1371
01:26:11,709 --> 01:26:13,586
I don't have any.
Let me finish.
1372
01:26:13,795 --> 01:26:17,090
What is your recollection of the reason
that the police were called
1373
01:26:17,298 --> 01:26:20,301
and those events that Ms. French
remembers so clearly?
1374
01:26:20,510 --> 01:26:21,761
I don't have any.
1375
01:26:21,970 --> 01:26:24,556
"I said to Terry,
'Tell them what you did to me.'
1376
01:26:24,722 --> 01:26:28,518
Terry looked at me square in the eye
and said calmly, 'It never happened.'
1377
01:26:28,726 --> 01:26:33,064
I looked at Terry and told him,
'You are a liar and you are sick.“
1378
01:26:33,273 --> 01:26:37,569
And I say, "You know, you're sick."
And he says, "Yeah, I'm sick."
1379
01:26:37,777 --> 01:26:40,488
I never did like him, I mean...
1380
01:26:40,655 --> 01:26:42,532
Even when Pam first married him,
1381
01:26:42,699 --> 01:26:46,661
.there was just always something.
He creeped me out.
1382
01:26:46,828 --> 01:26:48,538
DAVISON:
Do you lose your temper very often?
1383
01:26:48,705 --> 01:26:49,914
No.
1384
01:26:50,123 --> 01:26:52,667
Pretty even-keeled guy?
Try to be.
1385
01:26:52,876 --> 01:26:54,794
PAM:
He's got a look that's plum evil,
1386
01:26:55,420 --> 01:27:00,550
and when that look of evil comes
over him, you know, I know he's mad.
1387
01:27:00,717 --> 01:27:06,472
What-- What's this?
DAVISON: It is a judgment
1388
01:27:06,681 --> 01:27:13,354
against one Terry W. Hobbs
for aggravated assault in '94,
1389
01:27:13,563 --> 01:27:16,941
in conjunction with the shooting
of your brother-in-law.
1390
01:27:17,150 --> 01:27:20,111
Is that your signature at the bottom
of the first page, sir?
1391
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:21,905
It is.
1392
01:27:22,113 --> 01:27:27,118
He can snap into a nice guy
and a bad guy by a snap of a finger.
1393
01:27:27,327 --> 01:27:29,454
D'LESLl:
You did backhand Pam Hobbs
1394
01:27:29,621 --> 01:27:31,915
the night you ended up
shooting her brother,
1395
01:27:32,123 --> 01:27:33,374
correct?
Okay.
1396
01:27:33,583 --> 01:27:35,585
Is that correct?
Yeah. All right.
1397
01:27:35,793 --> 01:27:36,836
Is that funny?
1398
01:27:37,045 --> 01:27:40,757
Well, it's-- You get tired of talking
about it after a while.
1399
01:27:40,924 --> 01:27:44,010
I need, for the record, for you
to state under oath that you did
1400
01:27:44,177 --> 01:27:46,638
I did.
backhand Pam Hobbs.
1401
01:27:46,846 --> 01:27:49,140
PAM:
It was over a jealousy of a woman.
1402
01:27:49,349 --> 01:27:51,976
I was just trying to get away
and calm down, cool off,
1403
01:27:52,185 --> 01:27:55,438
and come back home,
and he wouldn't let me have the keys.
1404
01:27:55,647 --> 01:27:57,982
So he punched me pretty hard
that day.
1405
01:27:58,191 --> 01:28:01,235
D'LESLl:
Were you jealous over the attention
that Pam gave to Stevie?
1406
01:28:01,402 --> 01:28:03,321
No.
Did you compete with Stevie
1407
01:28:03,488 --> 01:28:05,448
for Pam's attention?
No.
1408
01:28:05,657 --> 01:28:10,703
He had made a comment to his mom
that I paid more attention to my son
1409
01:28:10,912 --> 01:28:14,666
than I did, you know,
being a wife, so...
1410
01:28:16,209 --> 01:28:20,296
JUDY:
Stevie started talking to me probably
when he was about 6 years old,
1411
01:28:20,505 --> 01:28:23,341
and he wanted to know
if I could keep a secret.
1412
01:28:23,549 --> 01:28:27,303
And I told him, yeah, because we were
really-- We were very, very close.
1413
01:28:27,512 --> 01:28:29,681
Kind of like, you know,
grew up together.
1414
01:28:29,889 --> 01:28:31,933
Because I was 8 years old
when he was born.
1415
01:28:32,141 --> 01:28:34,852
Daddy Terry, as he called him,
was mean to him.
1416
01:28:35,061 --> 01:28:38,106
And that he-- He treated him
different than Amanda.
1417
01:28:40,984 --> 01:28:44,320
The very first thing he ever told me
is about how he would whup him.
1418
01:28:46,030 --> 01:28:47,991
Make him hold his hands up
in the air,
1419
01:28:48,199 --> 01:28:50,535
and he would hold him
by the hair of his head
1420
01:28:50,743 --> 01:28:52,078
while he was whupping him.
1421
01:28:52,245 --> 01:28:54,789
D'LESLl:
He'd hold their hands in the air
as he whipped them.
1422
01:28:54,956 --> 01:28:58,751
Sometimes when he whipped Stevie,
he would leave belt marks on him.
1423
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:01,129
Is that true?
No.
1424
01:29:01,337 --> 01:29:04,090
Is it true you whipped Stevie with a belt?
Yes.
1425
01:29:04,298 --> 01:29:07,885
Is it true that you whipped Stevie and
made him hold his hands up in the air?
1426
01:29:08,094 --> 01:29:09,887
I didn't want to hit him
on the hands.
1427
01:29:10,096 --> 01:29:11,806
So that's true?
Yes.
1428
01:29:12,015 --> 01:29:14,726
The only thing that's not true
about paragraph number 1O
1429
01:29:14,934 --> 01:29:17,061
is that you would leave
belt marks on him?
1430
01:29:17,270 --> 01:29:18,312
Not that I recall.
1431
01:29:18,521 --> 01:29:22,358
MARIE:
Stevie had a belt mark on him,
and I asked Pam who whipped him.
1432
01:29:22,525 --> 01:29:24,777
I thought she had
and she said Terry did.
1433
01:29:24,944 --> 01:29:28,406
She didn't want to tell at first,
but she finally told me.
1434
01:29:28,865 --> 01:29:33,786
Stevie never would tell us because
he's afraid he'd get beat to death
1435
01:29:33,995 --> 01:29:35,538
or whatever when he got home.
1436
01:29:35,747 --> 01:29:39,584
JUDY:
And about locking him up in the closet
if he didn't do what he was told
1437
01:29:39,792 --> 01:29:42,211
right when he was told.
1438
01:29:42,420 --> 01:29:43,588
CINDY:
I lived with them.
1439
01:29:43,755 --> 01:29:45,798
I was around them off and on.
1440
01:29:46,215 --> 01:29:48,760
It was a happy time.
1441
01:29:48,926 --> 01:29:50,303
I've got pictures,
1442
01:29:50,928 --> 01:29:53,639
everybody's smiling,
everybody's happy.
1443
01:29:53,848 --> 01:29:57,393
Everybody's swimming,
everybody's having a good time.
1444
01:29:57,935 --> 01:30:01,481
There was no fighting
and screaming and hollering
1445
01:30:01,689 --> 01:30:04,525
and beating the kids
and stuff like that.
1446
01:30:04,734 --> 01:30:08,404
I can't say, "I wish he wouldn't
have married her." I can now.
1447
01:30:08,613 --> 01:30:11,574
Back then I didn't know her
enough to say, "Ew."
1448
01:30:11,741 --> 01:30:14,744
But I do now, so, "Ew."
1449
01:30:14,911 --> 01:30:20,416
Then he got into a little more detail about
things that were happening about...
1450
01:30:23,086 --> 01:30:29,425
Terry would come into his room
while he was asleep or going to sleep...
1451
01:30:31,219 --> 01:30:34,764
and he would make
Stevie watch him masturbate.
1452
01:30:34,931 --> 01:30:36,933
[Hr]
1453
01:30:38,142 --> 01:30:43,731
It progressed so much that he started
making Stevie mess with Amanda.
1454
01:30:43,940 --> 01:30:45,733
D'LESLl: Is that true, sir?
No, it's not true.
1455
01:30:45,942 --> 01:30:50,238
Can you think of any reason
that Judy Sadler would say
that about you
1456
01:30:50,446 --> 01:30:53,533
if she had not heard that from Stevie?
You'd have to ask Judy.
1457
01:30:53,741 --> 01:30:55,743
Can you think of any reason?
No.
1458
01:30:55,952 --> 01:30:59,956
She's told me about that,
but I really feel like, if that was true,
1459
01:31:00,123 --> 01:31:04,710
why didn't you say that
16, 17, or 18 years ago?
1460
01:31:04,919 --> 01:31:07,922
Why do you wait
this long to say it?
1461
01:31:08,131 --> 01:31:11,175
Because maybe if it would have
been true and she said something,
1462
01:31:11,384 --> 01:31:16,180
then my mom would've kept me,
she would've fought for me.
1463
01:31:16,389 --> 01:31:19,350
MEEKS:
This is kind of a new thing for y'all,
this therapy stuff,
1464
01:31:19,517 --> 01:31:24,272
so that's pretty stressful.
But you'll get comfortable with that.
1465
01:31:25,273 --> 01:31:30,695
"Guilt. I feel guilty practically all the time."
Can you put a finger on the guilt?
1466
01:31:30,903 --> 01:31:34,115
Where's that guilt coming from?
I don't know.
1467
01:31:34,323 --> 01:31:36,576
Just can't seem
to pick it out, huh?
1468
01:31:36,784 --> 01:31:40,997
D'LESLl:
Attached here, too, is exhibit one,
pages from Amanda Hobbs' journal
1469
01:31:41,205 --> 01:31:43,332
in her handwriting.
1470
01:31:43,499 --> 01:31:46,544
"You know, I think I'm the only
19-year-old that can't remember
1471
01:31:46,752 --> 01:31:49,213
what happened in my life
10 years ago.
1472
01:31:49,422 --> 01:31:54,594
Was I traumatized as a child that
I had to turn to drugs to forget about it?
1473
01:31:54,802 --> 01:31:57,889
I used to tell my mom,
'My dad messed with me.'
1474
01:31:58,097 --> 01:32:00,641
I honestly don't remember.
1475
01:32:00,850 --> 01:32:06,272
I used to dream about my dad having
sex with me, but it was just a dream.
1476
01:32:06,480 --> 01:32:09,692
As far as I remember,
my dad never touched me sexually,
1477
01:32:09,901 --> 01:32:12,570
but he beat the hell out of me."
1478
01:32:12,778 --> 01:32:18,951
He hit me one time with a belt,
but he used the buckle.
1479
01:32:19,160 --> 01:32:24,415
And it left a welt, probably that thick,
across my whole back and it was purple.
1480
01:32:26,375 --> 01:32:29,045
D'LESLl:
Is it still your testimony
you never hit your daughter?
1481
01:32:29,253 --> 01:32:30,379
Correct.
1482
01:32:30,755 --> 01:32:33,507
D'LESLl:
You never sexually molested her?
1483
01:32:33,674 --> 01:32:34,967
TERRY:
Never one time.
1484
01:32:35,176 --> 01:32:39,305
D'LESLl:
When we talk about emotional or
other problems your daughter has had,
1485
01:32:39,972 --> 01:32:42,642
you do not feel you are
responsible for any of those.
1486
01:32:42,808 --> 01:32:44,602
Is that correct?
Correct.
1487
01:32:44,769 --> 01:32:49,815
PAM:
I know Stevie asked me about
two weeks before he was murdered
1488
01:32:50,024 --> 01:32:52,276
to leave Terry,
and I asked him why.
1489
01:32:52,443 --> 01:32:56,614
And he said, "He loves Amanda,
but he don't love me."
1490
01:32:57,573 --> 01:32:59,992
[Hr]
1491
01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:07,083
I feel like I'm putting the pieces
of a puzzle together and I'm so scared.
1492
01:33:08,125 --> 01:33:11,879
Talking to Terry over things
that's happened and all that,
1493
01:33:12,088 --> 01:33:15,591
they did their job,
they got the right ones, and all this.
1494
01:33:18,010 --> 01:33:23,349
I just want the truth.
I want the answers.
1495
01:33:24,976 --> 01:33:26,185
[SNIFFLING]
1496
01:33:28,104 --> 01:33:30,690
Since the program aired,
convictions were handed down
1497
01:33:30,898 --> 01:33:35,653
to all three of the accused teenagers,
and it became undeniable
1498
01:33:35,861 --> 01:33:39,448
that the brutal murders
had been part of a Satanic ritual.
1499
01:33:40,032 --> 01:33:42,785
Back with us today,
Pam and Terry Hobbs.
1500
01:33:42,994 --> 01:33:44,578
I mean, all murder is horrible.
1501
01:33:44,787 --> 01:33:47,790
Is the manner of his,
the specific manner in which he died,
1502
01:33:47,999 --> 01:33:50,626
is that something
that will always haunt you?
1503
01:33:51,294 --> 01:33:54,547
Yeah, I'll go to my grave with it,
thinking about it.
1504
01:33:54,714 --> 01:33:56,590
I realize my son
is in a better place.
1505
01:33:56,799 --> 01:34:00,511
STIDHAM:
I got a phone call back in 2003
about the Hobbs knives
1506
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:04,515
that Pam discovered
when their marriage went south.
1507
01:34:04,682 --> 01:34:05,808
[Hr]
1508
01:34:05,975 --> 01:34:08,936
PAM:
What stuck out to our attention
is Stevie's knife in there.
1509
01:34:09,103 --> 01:34:13,816
STIDHAM:
According to Pam, that knife
would have been in the boy's pocket
1510
01:34:14,025 --> 01:34:17,528
the day that he was murdered,
and so that was very interesting.
1511
01:34:17,737 --> 01:34:20,698
MORIARTY:
How did he get it?
More important, when did he get it?
1512
01:34:20,906 --> 01:34:26,412
Pam says she knows Stevie Branch
had it until he died. Terry Hobbs says...
1513
01:34:26,620 --> 01:34:31,292
I was his dad,
I was acting as a responsible parent.
1514
01:34:31,500 --> 01:34:35,755
Not letting a 6-, 7-, 8-year-old little boy
carry a pocket knife.
1515
01:34:35,963 --> 01:34:38,215
DAVISON:
Aren't you aware that
his mommy, his mother,
1516
01:34:38,382 --> 01:34:42,136
said that he carried the knife with him
up until the time that he disappeared?
1517
01:34:42,303 --> 01:34:43,888
So?
1518
01:34:44,096 --> 01:34:45,973
And she stated
that she didn't trust
1519
01:34:46,182 --> 01:34:51,020
the prosecution and she wanted
to turn it over to the defense.
1520
01:34:51,228 --> 01:34:55,149
DAVISON: I'm asking if it
surprised you, given the fact
that the West Memphis Police
1521
01:34:55,358 --> 01:34:58,778
has spent so much time
and so much money over the years
1522
01:34:58,986 --> 01:35:03,783
saying they got it right, that when
DNA attributed to someone else
1523
01:35:03,949 --> 01:35:06,369
was found in the ligature
of one of the victims
1524
01:35:06,577 --> 01:35:09,622
that they attributed it
to secondary transfer?
1525
01:35:10,831 --> 01:35:14,752
What if it was secondary transfer?
What if it wasn't?
1526
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:17,963
What are you saying?
I'm saying there could be a question
1527
01:35:18,172 --> 01:35:21,425
about whether or not you were
somehow involved in these crimes.
1528
01:35:21,634 --> 01:35:23,344
Well, who says that?
1529
01:35:23,803 --> 01:35:27,181
How do you explain
Mr. Jacoby's DNA?
1530
01:35:28,057 --> 01:35:30,559
Which is the second--
I have no explanation for that.
1531
01:35:30,768 --> 01:35:34,855
ATTORNEY: Objection to form--
We was in them woods all night.
1532
01:35:40,152 --> 01:35:42,905
JACOBY:
The first time I heard about DNA was
1533
01:35:43,072 --> 01:35:45,991
the lack of DNA at the crime scene.
1534
01:35:48,035 --> 01:35:53,791
The first time I heard about my DNA,
it was just shock therapy, I think.
1535
01:35:53,999 --> 01:35:56,752
Telling me that they found my DNA
at the crime scene.
1536
01:35:56,961 --> 01:35:59,922
Sleepless nights, you know,
going over and over,
1537
01:36:00,131 --> 01:36:04,552
trying to see if there was something
you missed or something you heard or...
1538
01:36:06,095 --> 01:36:07,096
[SIGHS]
1539
01:36:07,263 --> 01:36:10,933
DAVISON:
It's your testimony Mr. Jacoby was
with you all night in the woods?
1540
01:36:11,142 --> 01:36:14,562
We were together quite a bit that night.
No, that's not my question.
1541
01:36:14,770 --> 01:36:17,273
You testified earlier
that you and Mr. Jacoby
1542
01:36:17,440 --> 01:36:19,608
were together all night
until it was time
1543
01:36:19,775 --> 01:36:21,402
for him to go to work.
Exactly.
1544
01:36:21,610 --> 01:36:24,822
Is that your story, or are you changing it?
TERRY: No, we were.
1545
01:36:25,281 --> 01:36:28,951
JACOBY:
So I'm at home and I hear
a knock on the door.
1546
01:36:29,118 --> 01:36:30,536
And it's Terry and Amanda.
1547
01:36:30,744 --> 01:36:33,164
I ask him what's he doing. He says:
1548
01:36:33,372 --> 01:36:36,167
"Oh, looking for Stevie,
he was supposed to be home."
1549
01:36:36,333 --> 01:36:38,169
D'LESLl:
"Terry and Amanda
came inside my house.
1550
01:36:38,335 --> 01:36:41,547
Amanda played with toys
and Terry and I sat down
and played guitars
1551
01:36:41,755 --> 01:36:44,842
for up to one hour."
You've already stated
that it's possible
1552
01:36:45,009 --> 01:36:47,845
you went to David's house
and played guitars for one hour.
1553
01:36:48,012 --> 01:36:50,723
I didn't say that.
You said that in your last deposition.
1554
01:36:50,890 --> 01:36:52,683
I don't recall playing the guitars.
1555
01:36:52,892 --> 01:36:56,437
I went over to see if David would
help me look for the three little boys.
1556
01:36:56,645 --> 01:36:58,856
JACOBY:
"Pretty Woman," Roy Orbison.
1557
01:36:59,064 --> 01:37:02,693
I handed him my guitar and asked him
to play that part of that song again,
1558
01:37:02,902 --> 01:37:07,114
so I could get it down and he--
We did that two or three times,
1559
01:37:07,323 --> 01:37:09,950
you know, before I finally got it right.
1560
01:37:10,159 --> 01:37:13,579
So, you know,
a little time went by and he says:
1561
01:37:13,746 --> 01:37:17,124
"Well, you know,
I need to go look for Stevie."
1562
01:37:18,417 --> 01:37:21,378
I said, "Terry, let me know.
Let me know where you find him."
1563
01:37:21,587 --> 01:37:23,589
[Hr]
1564
01:37:24,340 --> 01:37:28,385
DAVISON:
Did you see Stevie at all
that day, May the 5th?
1565
01:37:29,845 --> 01:37:31,764
No, I did not.
1566
01:37:33,682 --> 01:37:35,851
Did you see any
of the three boys that day?
1567
01:37:36,060 --> 01:37:38,020
No, I did not.
1568
01:37:38,229 --> 01:37:42,191
JAMIE:
I think the timeframe is what
pulled us in more than anything else,
1569
01:37:42,399 --> 01:37:44,235
because I was like, "Wait a minute."
1570
01:37:44,443 --> 01:37:46,946
We went to church every Wednesday
at the same time.
1571
01:37:47,154 --> 01:37:50,783
We left about 6:30 every single
Wednesday, we never missed church.
1572
01:37:50,991 --> 01:37:53,118
And we saw them out there.
1573
01:37:53,327 --> 01:37:57,122
Terry Hobbs and Steven Branch
lived three houses down from us
1574
01:37:57,331 --> 01:37:59,041
on South McAuley.
1575
01:37:59,208 --> 01:38:04,672
About 6:30, we came out the door
and Steven was in front on his bike.
1576
01:38:04,838 --> 01:38:07,841
Christopher and Michael
were running behind him,
1577
01:38:08,008 --> 01:38:09,843
and they zoomed out real fast.
1578
01:38:10,010 --> 01:38:12,805
I told Christopher,
I yelled to him, "You need to go home.
1579
01:38:13,013 --> 01:38:14,682
Your brother said to go home."
1580
01:38:14,890 --> 01:38:17,518
He said, "I don't have to do
what you tell me to do."
1581
01:38:17,726 --> 01:38:21,272
And I saw Terry walking down
the sidewalk, and he was saying:
1582
01:38:21,480 --> 01:38:24,817
"Y'all come back down here,"
and they all went in that direction
1583
01:38:25,025 --> 01:38:28,654
toward him and we got in the car
and went to church.
1584
01:38:28,862 --> 01:38:31,865
The next day at school,
Ryan came up to us and he said
1585
01:38:32,032 --> 01:38:35,244
they couldn't find his brother,
his brother didn't come home.
1586
01:38:35,411 --> 01:38:37,955
I told him, "I saw your brother,
I talked to him.
1587
01:38:38,122 --> 01:38:40,541
I told him to come home.
What are you talking about?"
1588
01:38:40,708 --> 01:38:42,543
He was really devastated,
he was crying.
1589
01:38:42,710 --> 01:38:46,422
And he said that they found his brother,
and he wasn't alive anymore.
1590
01:38:46,630 --> 01:38:47,798
We knew we saw him,
1591
01:38:48,007 --> 01:38:50,718
but we thought,
"There, his dad was out there with him.
1592
01:38:50,884 --> 01:38:53,137
Surely, they told him
that they were down there."
1593
01:38:53,304 --> 01:38:56,223
So we thought all this time
that they already knew.
1594
01:38:57,141 --> 01:39:03,314
If deemed credible, it's more damning
than even the DNA evidence, you know.
1595
01:39:03,522 --> 01:39:07,359
I mean, the last person to be
in the presence of these three victims.
1596
01:39:07,568 --> 01:39:11,447
By denying that occurred, rather than
offering any explanation of it,
1597
01:39:11,655 --> 01:39:13,949
it's awfully powerful stuff.
1598
01:39:14,116 --> 01:39:16,035
DOUGLAS:
These people here
were never interviewed.
1599
01:39:16,201 --> 01:39:17,786
They were just neighbors of Hobbs.
1600
01:39:17,953 --> 01:39:20,289
Hobbs wasn't interviewed.
Didn't do a neighborhood.
1601
01:39:20,456 --> 01:39:23,459
They'll swear on a stack of Bibles
that they saw Terry Hobbs
1602
01:39:23,626 --> 01:39:27,379
with the three children around 6:30.
I don't know how many years
1603
01:39:27,546 --> 01:39:30,758
before anybody had asked me
anything about it too.
1604
01:39:30,924 --> 01:39:32,593
D'LESLl:
You say you were not ever alone
1605
01:39:32,801 --> 01:39:35,554
on the night of May 5th
and the morning of May 6th,
1606
01:39:35,763 --> 01:39:41,935
and yet David Jacoby
says you left his house twice, alone.
1607
01:39:42,144 --> 01:39:44,521
DOUGLAS:
What Jacoby has told us so far
1608
01:39:44,730 --> 01:39:49,902
is that it could be two hours where
Terry Hobbs can't be accounted for.
1609
01:39:50,110 --> 01:39:52,738
D'LESLIE:
I'm saying that you don't
have an alibi witness
1610
01:39:52,946 --> 01:39:56,241
for two to two and a half hours
on the evening of the murders.
1611
01:39:56,450 --> 01:40:00,663
From 6 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.
I don't know.
1612
01:40:00,871 --> 01:40:02,790
Does that concern you?
No.
1613
01:40:02,998 --> 01:40:04,833
[LINE RINGING]
1614
01:40:09,421 --> 01:40:10,964
TERRY". Hello?
Hey.
1615
01:40:11,173 --> 01:40:13,467
Had me a visitor today.
1616
01:40:13,676 --> 01:40:16,845
John, what's--? John Douglas?
1617
01:40:17,054 --> 01:40:18,764
John's the FBI.
1618
01:40:18,972 --> 01:40:21,433
Ah...
What'd he say?
1619
01:40:22,017 --> 01:40:25,187
There's a bunch of discrepancies
on where I said where we're at
1620
01:40:25,396 --> 01:40:28,232
and where you say we were at,
and it just...
1621
01:40:28,440 --> 01:40:31,026
I don't give a shit what them people
got to say
1622
01:40:31,235 --> 01:40:33,570
about where I was at
and what time I was there.
1623
01:40:33,779 --> 01:40:35,572
We don't have to answer
to them people.
1624
01:40:35,781 --> 01:40:38,492
DOUGLAS:
David is his primary alibi,
1625
01:40:38,701 --> 01:40:42,746
and what he has done in the past,
he's fed information to David,
1626
01:40:42,955 --> 01:40:44,289
putting them together.
1627
01:40:44,498 --> 01:40:46,834
JACOBY:
I don't know, from what I said
and what you said
1628
01:40:47,042 --> 01:40:51,964
and what they're telling me,
6:30 to 9:30's really fucked up.
1629
01:40:52,131 --> 01:40:55,175
TERRY: Six-thirty to nine-thirty.
I don't know what they're playing...
1630
01:40:55,342 --> 01:40:58,220
We rode around
looking for three little boys.
1631
01:40:58,387 --> 01:41:01,598
We got out and we did a little walking,
looking for three little boys.
1632
01:41:01,807 --> 01:41:05,018
I went and picked my wife up
at 9:00.
1633
01:41:05,227 --> 01:41:08,522
"Where did you ride around,
Mr. Hobbs?" West Memphis.
1634
01:41:10,482 --> 01:41:12,484
What'?
You was with me, David.
1635
01:41:12,693 --> 01:41:13,736
You remember that?
1636
01:41:13,944 --> 01:41:16,697
DOUGLAS:
Jacoby is starting to realize
that he was being set up
1637
01:41:16,905 --> 01:41:19,908
by Terry Hobbs as an alibi.
1638
01:41:20,117 --> 01:41:23,245
TERRY".
Well, we know we didn't do it, okay?
1639
01:41:23,454 --> 01:41:26,457
The police know who done it,
and they're sitting in prison.
1640
01:41:26,665 --> 01:41:29,168
At the time, I wasn't looking
for three murdered kids.
1641
01:41:29,376 --> 01:41:31,503
I was helping my friend
look for his kid
1642
01:41:31,712 --> 01:41:33,756
and who happened to be
with another kid
1643
01:41:33,964 --> 01:41:35,799
who happened to be
with another kid.
1644
01:41:36,008 --> 01:41:39,219
So I mean, and what upsets me is...
Yeah.
1645
01:41:39,428 --> 01:41:43,182
I gotta stop with the camera,
here it goes.
1646
01:41:43,390 --> 01:41:44,558
[DOOR CLOSES]
1647
01:41:44,725 --> 01:41:48,729
It just gets me that he didn't
come back, you know? Fuck.
1648
01:41:48,937 --> 01:41:52,149
Why do you not come back
to your friend's house to help you
1649
01:41:52,357 --> 01:41:54,109
if you can't find your kid?
Yeah.
1650
01:41:54,943 --> 01:41:57,780
I stopped myself from saying
that he did it,
1651
01:41:57,988 --> 01:41:59,573
you know, in all these years.
1652
01:41:59,782 --> 01:42:02,451
I've actually, you know,
said he couldn't...
1653
01:42:02,618 --> 01:42:04,495
[STAMMERING]
1654
01:42:04,703 --> 01:42:08,499
It gets to the point,
I'd give my life to know
the fucking truth.
1655
01:42:09,124 --> 01:42:10,751
Fucking Terry.
1656
01:42:13,754 --> 01:42:16,757
But I've been that little kid,
you know?
1657
01:42:18,050 --> 01:42:20,886
You been that step--? That stepchild?
That stepkid, yeah.
1658
01:42:21,094 --> 01:42:25,557
That gets his ass whupped
at the drop of a hat for--
1659
01:42:25,724 --> 01:42:29,353
You know, for something
somebody else's done.
1660
01:42:29,561 --> 01:42:33,065
And you catch what's
built up from everybody else.
1661
01:42:33,273 --> 01:42:38,862
And that, I felt that with Stevie.
I mean, like with the marbles.
1662
01:42:39,071 --> 01:42:42,366
He's throwing marbles
and bouncing them off the wall.
1663
01:42:42,574 --> 01:42:45,452
Terry is telling him,
"I'm gonna bust your ass. Quit.
1664
01:42:45,661 --> 01:42:47,955
Stevie, I'm gonna bust your ass.
Stevie, quit.
1665
01:42:48,163 --> 01:42:50,749
Stevie, quit. I'm gonna tell you
one more time, Stevie."
1666
01:42:50,958 --> 01:42:53,877
And, you know, you just want--
You wanna get that last marble.
1667
01:42:54,086 --> 01:42:57,256
And Stevie's looking like that
last marble's fixing to come again,
1668
01:42:57,464 --> 01:43:01,510
and I said, you know, "Sit down, let me
show you how we played marbles."
1669
01:43:01,718 --> 01:43:05,138
And it got Terry, you know,
off of him, and...
1670
01:43:05,597 --> 01:43:06,890
MARIE:
Terry hated him.
1671
01:43:07,099 --> 01:43:10,435
What he did to him
to make him hate him, I don't know.
1672
01:43:10,644 --> 01:43:13,480
Stevie was scared of Terry.
1673
01:43:14,022 --> 01:43:18,861
He was hid in the closet, and I asked
him why he was hid in a closet.
1674
01:43:19,069 --> 01:43:22,155
You know, he had
a mishap in his underwear
1675
01:43:22,364 --> 01:43:24,157
and Daddy Terry would whip him.
1676
01:43:24,366 --> 01:43:28,704
And one time he had thrown him
against the wall.
1677
01:43:28,912 --> 01:43:32,207
DOUGLAS:
I do not believe the homicide
was planned.
1678
01:43:32,416 --> 01:43:37,254
This person responsible for the murders
lost control and had to kill them.
1679
01:43:37,462 --> 01:43:41,091
They were already heading
that way, and he said,
"Get back down to the house."
1680
01:43:41,258 --> 01:43:44,052
And they passed him,
they were laughing and playing.
1681
01:43:44,261 --> 01:43:46,054
We thought it was a normal day.
1682
01:43:46,221 --> 01:43:48,140
It was things we saw them do
all the time.
1683
01:43:48,348 --> 01:43:52,144
D'LESLl:
You were not angry in the sense
that you become physically abusive?
1684
01:43:52,352 --> 01:43:53,395
Correct.
1685
01:43:53,604 --> 01:43:57,691
DIMAIO:
These young boys were overpowered.
1686
01:43:58,358 --> 01:44:00,569
D'LESLl: You do not fly into rages?
Correct.
1687
01:44:00,777 --> 01:44:03,280
And you do not beat your children?
Never.
1688
01:44:03,488 --> 01:44:07,242
If he was capable of doing this,
and I can almost picture it,
1689
01:44:07,451 --> 01:44:11,204
that he freaked out, and the other
two boys being there, um...
1690
01:44:11,997 --> 01:44:16,126
They've got skull fractures,
they've got brain injuries.
1691
01:44:16,335 --> 01:44:19,755
If it had been an accident,
the Terry Hobbs that I know,
1692
01:44:19,963 --> 01:44:23,800
no, I don't think that he would say
that, "I accidentally did this.
1693
01:44:24,009 --> 01:44:27,429
I'm sorry," and turn himself in for it.
1694
01:44:27,638 --> 01:44:32,851
BADEN:
These children were alive
until they inhaled water and drowned.
1695
01:44:33,018 --> 01:44:36,438
To do what he did to the children,
hide the clothing, hide the children,
1696
01:44:36,605 --> 01:44:38,065
he got in water, got muddy.
1697
01:44:38,231 --> 01:44:40,734
DAVISON:
There's been some discussion
about you doing laundry
1698
01:44:40,943 --> 01:44:43,320
the evening of the 5th
or the morning of the 6th.
1699
01:44:43,487 --> 01:44:45,405
Recall that?
It didn't happen.
1700
01:44:45,572 --> 01:44:47,032
DAVISON: You didn't do laundry?
TERRY: No.
1701
01:44:47,199 --> 01:44:51,244
I saw him cleaning.
I saw him washing clothes.
1702
01:44:51,912 --> 01:44:54,790
I saw him in Stevie's room.
1703
01:44:54,998 --> 01:44:58,085
I mean, he had bleach and everything
and was cleaning.
1704
01:44:58,251 --> 01:45:01,838
I had never seen Terry
clean anything
1705
01:45:02,047 --> 01:45:03,632
the whole time I had known him.
1706
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,678
When he took me to work, I believe
Terry changed into a purple tank top,
1707
01:45:07,886 --> 01:45:10,263
a pair of shorts
and his LA Gear tennis shoes.
1708
01:45:10,472 --> 01:45:12,391
He's muddy,
he has to change his clothing.
1709
01:45:12,599 --> 01:45:14,184
PAM:
When he picked me up from work,
1710
01:45:14,351 --> 01:45:18,981
he was in blue jeans
and flannel top shirt on.
1711
01:45:19,147 --> 01:45:21,566
DOUGLAS:
He has to get prepared
and wait to be interviewed.
1712
01:45:21,775 --> 01:45:25,821
D'LESLl:
And you have a dispute with
every single one of your alibi witnesses.
1713
01:45:26,029 --> 01:45:30,033
If you put
all of these statements together,
1714
01:45:30,242 --> 01:45:33,328
and all the evidence together
that I've just run through,
1715
01:45:33,537 --> 01:45:35,288
and you're the police,
1716
01:45:35,497 --> 01:45:38,166
wouldn't you wanna look
at Terry Hobbs for this murder?
1717
01:45:38,375 --> 01:45:40,794
You'd have to look
at Terry Hobbs.
1718
01:45:41,795 --> 01:45:44,256
DOUGLAS:
From an investigative perspective,
1719
01:45:44,464 --> 01:45:49,344
it solidifies Terry Hobbs
as the principal suspect.
1720
01:45:49,553 --> 01:45:52,764
It's gonna be tough
for someone like him to confess.
1721
01:45:52,973 --> 01:45:55,392
If he is in fact the guy,
it's extremely tough.
1722
01:45:55,600 --> 01:45:59,479
He's had 18 years to think about it.
He's got an answer for everything.
1723
01:45:59,688 --> 01:46:03,525
You throw him a pitch, he's got it.
You know, he knows how to hit it.
1724
01:46:09,406 --> 01:46:11,992
The attorney general's office
has taken the position
1725
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:15,871
that not only should these
wrongly convicted young men
1726
01:46:16,038 --> 01:46:18,540
not have the opportunity
to prove their innocence,
1727
01:46:18,749 --> 01:46:22,502
but that no one ever in Arkansas
1728
01:46:22,711 --> 01:46:26,173
be given that opportunity
on the grounds that Arkansas
1729
01:46:26,381 --> 01:46:30,385
is incapable
of ever convicting anyone wrongly.
1730
01:46:31,136 --> 01:46:35,140
It's one thing to build perception
that there's something wrong.
1731
01:46:35,307 --> 01:46:39,478
It's another thing to get
a formal judgment overturning it.
1732
01:46:39,644 --> 01:46:46,318
There are still some formidable
legal obstacles to opening that door.
1733
01:46:46,485 --> 01:46:47,986
[Hr]
1734
01:46:48,695 --> 01:46:50,447
REPORTER:
Tell us why you're here today.
1735
01:46:50,655 --> 01:46:56,161
I'm here forjustice
and the real killer to be found out.
1736
01:46:56,369 --> 01:47:01,583
If I've had to be the spotlight
of people thinking I was involved,
1737
01:47:01,792 --> 01:47:05,837
if that kept the case alive
to get where we are today,
1738
01:47:06,046 --> 01:47:08,298
I'd turn around
and do it all over again.
1739
01:47:10,258 --> 01:47:13,887
Talk about what has been so impactful
in this case that has changed your mind.
1740
01:47:14,096 --> 01:47:16,932
Because that day,
you believed he was the killer.
1741
01:47:17,140 --> 01:47:19,309
That day I believed
what the state told me.
1742
01:47:19,518 --> 01:47:22,437
And it took quite a while
of being blinded,
1743
01:47:22,646 --> 01:47:25,065
and when I finally
got my answers,
1744
01:47:25,232 --> 01:47:29,236
none of the roads
led to the three in prison.
1745
01:47:29,444 --> 01:47:32,239
All the roads and all the evidence
1746
01:47:32,405 --> 01:47:36,159
lead to Terry Wayne Hobbs.
1747
01:47:42,207 --> 01:47:44,376
This case is outrageous.
1748
01:47:44,543 --> 01:47:48,296
People need to get involved and help
on this case. I am happy to get involved,
1749
01:47:48,505 --> 01:47:51,466
donating my time,
time from my law firm, pro bono,
1750
01:47:51,675 --> 01:47:54,594
because these young men
need a fair trial.
1751
01:47:54,803 --> 01:47:59,266
If they're convicted again? Fine.
But do it fair. Do it constitutionally.
1752
01:47:59,474 --> 01:48:02,310
It's an endurance test
to keep up with this.
1753
01:48:02,519 --> 01:48:05,147
I think I was in my late 20s
when I first heard about it.
1754
01:48:05,355 --> 01:48:07,607
I am now 45.
1755
01:48:08,692 --> 01:48:12,779
We'd buy Doritos and Skittles
and M&M's.
1756
01:48:12,988 --> 01:48:17,075
And we'd sit down, and I'll have napkins
and then Damien would say:
1757
01:48:17,284 --> 01:48:20,203
"All right, put out your napkin,
okay, try this, all right.
1758
01:48:20,412 --> 01:48:23,248
One Ruffle, two orange Skittles.
1759
01:48:23,456 --> 01:48:25,083
All right, get the root beer ready.
1760
01:48:25,250 --> 01:48:28,086
Now eat that, drink that
at the same time, isn't that crazy?"
1761
01:48:28,253 --> 01:48:30,088
[LAUGHS]
1762
01:48:30,964 --> 01:48:35,802
It's a long, long process. We've all had
to educate ourselves and learn patience.
1763
01:48:36,011 --> 01:48:38,430
We'd make a small breakthrough
1764
01:48:38,638 --> 01:48:42,017
or something and Lorri and I would
have a long two-hour phone call.
1765
01:48:42,225 --> 01:48:43,393
We'd get off the phone,
1766
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:47,439
think this is gonna be a happy ending.
There's gotta be a happy ending to this.
1767
01:48:48,732 --> 01:48:51,067
BRAGA:
One thing that could happen
is they could say no.
1768
01:48:51,276 --> 01:48:52,652
"Judge Burnett was right.
1769
01:48:52,861 --> 01:48:57,699
You lose, no new hearing, Damien.
Sorry, done."
1770
01:48:57,908 --> 01:49:00,702
And then he literally is done
in the Arkansas court.
1771
01:49:00,869 --> 01:49:02,871
[Hr]
1772
01:49:05,874 --> 01:49:07,083
JUDGE 1:
The oral argument today
1773
01:49:07,292 --> 01:49:11,129
ts Damien Wayne Echols
v. the State of Arkansas.
1774
01:49:11,338 --> 01:49:14,758
RIORDAN:
So we have a situation here
where the Arkansas legislature
1775
01:49:14,966 --> 01:49:20,388
passed these statutes out of, quote,
"In response to nationwide concerns
1776
01:49:20,597 --> 01:49:22,849
that innocent persons
were being imprisoned
1777
01:49:23,058 --> 01:49:25,936
and even executed
for crimes that they did not commit."
1778
01:49:26,144 --> 01:49:29,147
However, the state takes the position
1779
01:49:29,356 --> 01:49:34,361
that the only evidence other than DNA
allowed in a DNA action in this state
1780
01:49:34,569 --> 01:49:36,571
is evidence of guilt.
1781
01:49:36,780 --> 01:49:39,407
The fact of the matter is
that DNA evidence
1782
01:49:39,616 --> 01:49:42,244
that couldn't have been obtained
15 years ago
1783
01:49:42,452 --> 01:49:44,621
begins to make things relevant.
1784
01:49:44,788 --> 01:49:47,958
Connect to other evidence that did
not appear relevant 15 years ago.
1785
01:49:48,166 --> 01:49:52,337
So your interpretation
is it's not really just new
scientific evidence.
1786
01:49:52,545 --> 01:49:54,798
It's new evidence
across the board that'll come?
1787
01:49:55,006 --> 01:49:56,049
RIORDAN:
Yes, Your Honor.
1788
01:49:56,258 --> 01:49:58,343
RAUPP:
The animating purpose of this statute
1789
01:49:58,551 --> 01:50:02,472
is not to do away
with finality of judgments,
1790
01:50:02,639 --> 01:50:05,725
but to test evidence of innocence.
1791
01:50:05,934 --> 01:50:08,728
Doesn't that include
the last 17 years?
1792
01:50:09,437 --> 01:50:12,065
No, well, I'm sorry.
Does it include the last...?
1793
01:50:12,274 --> 01:50:16,152
The last 17 years, or are you limiting
the evidence that can be presented?
1794
01:50:16,361 --> 01:50:20,115
RAUPP:
You can't bring in evidence that is just
further reweighing of evidence
1795
01:50:20,282 --> 01:50:24,661
that the state post-conviction processes
permit you to make in other forums.
1796
01:50:24,828 --> 01:50:28,665
Now certainly he would like to have
a much freer reign
1797
01:50:28,873 --> 01:50:33,712
to go back to court
and bring in 17 years' worth of claims
1798
01:50:33,920 --> 01:50:36,548
that have been made
and retry his case.
1799
01:50:36,715 --> 01:50:40,051
Counselor, what harm
is there in allowing him
to present the evidence
1800
01:50:40,218 --> 01:50:42,721
from the last 17 years?
I'm sorry?
1801
01:50:42,929 --> 01:50:47,142
JUDGE 2:
What harm is there to--?
In allowing him to present all evidence?
1802
01:50:47,934 --> 01:50:50,437
RAUPP:
The harm is in the finality
of a criminal judgment
1803
01:50:50,645 --> 01:50:55,066
that is not demonstrated
to have any constitutional
1804
01:50:55,275 --> 01:50:58,486
or procedural defect
and just to try it again. I mean...
1805
01:50:58,695 --> 01:51:02,532
RIORDAN:
We would submit that the court
is to consider the DNA evidence,
1806
01:51:02,741 --> 01:51:08,288
along with all other evidence,
whether or not admitted at the first trial.
1807
01:51:08,496 --> 01:51:10,415
All simply means all.
1808
01:51:11,666 --> 01:51:16,671
LORRI:
I talked to him, actually,
right after the hearing.
1809
01:51:16,838 --> 01:51:19,883
Guards came into his cell
1810
01:51:20,091 --> 01:51:24,095
and took everything,
everything he owns. All of his books.
1811
01:51:24,304 --> 01:51:28,308
BRAGA:
Fifty-one books, his journals, his shoes.
1812
01:51:28,516 --> 01:51:30,352
When he asked
why they were doing that,
1813
01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:33,563
they said they were sick
of seeing him on the news.
1814
01:51:33,772 --> 01:51:37,817
It's terribly abusive.
They were horribly abusive to him.
1815
01:51:39,611 --> 01:51:42,489
TERRY [OVER PHONE]:
They don't like the death-row thing.
1816
01:51:42,697 --> 01:51:45,325
They're trying to get Damien Echols
off of death row
1817
01:51:45,492 --> 01:51:47,327
so they can put
two new people in there,
1818
01:51:47,494 --> 01:51:49,371
and you know
who them two new people is?
1819
01:51:49,537 --> 01:51:52,082
Don't even say it.
Me and you.
1820
01:51:52,624 --> 01:51:54,918
CINDY:
I ain't never felt the need to have to
1821
01:51:55,126 --> 01:51:58,588
try to defend somebody
in our family before,
1822
01:51:58,755 --> 01:52:01,466
but now I feel like
my brother's getting a bad rap.
1823
01:52:01,633 --> 01:52:03,593
Somebody's got to say something.
1824
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:08,640
He, obviously, is just gonna
keep letting it go and letting it go
1825
01:52:08,848 --> 01:52:12,060
because he feels like he's had enough,
you know, and it's--
1826
01:52:12,227 --> 01:52:13,895
Somebody needs to say something.
1827
01:52:14,062 --> 01:52:16,481
If they're trying to put the blame
on someone,
1828
01:52:16,648 --> 01:52:19,150
they need to dig deeper
and find that someone.
1829
01:52:19,317 --> 01:52:21,444
[LINE RINGING]
1830
01:52:21,611 --> 01:52:27,450
AUTOMATED VOICE [OVER PHONE]:
Received December 11th at 11:02 a.m.
1831
01:52:27,784 --> 01:52:31,746
SISK:
Ummm... Hello.
I need to speak to somebody,
1832
01:52:31,913 --> 01:52:33,415
so please have someone call me.
1833
01:52:33,581 --> 01:52:34,666
[Hr]
1834
01:52:34,833 --> 01:52:38,086
MAN: Marker.
GEISER: State your name, please.
1835
01:52:38,253 --> 01:52:41,047
Blake Sisk.
GEISER: How old are you?
1836
01:52:41,214 --> 01:52:43,258
Twenty years old.
Okay.
1837
01:52:43,633 --> 01:52:46,010
The other day
we got a call on the tipline.
1838
01:52:46,177 --> 01:52:49,722
This young man had been a friend
of Michael Hobbs Jr.,
1839
01:52:49,889 --> 01:52:52,142
who is the nephew of Terry Hobbs.
1840
01:52:52,350 --> 01:52:56,271
Michael Hobbs Jr. lives in a town
called Mountain Home, Arkansas.
1841
01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,482
His dad, Michael Hobbs Sr.,
runs a restaurant there,
1842
01:52:59,691 --> 01:53:02,193
and they've lived there
for a long time.
1843
01:53:02,402 --> 01:53:06,322
First thing he told us was that
when he was about 12 or 13,
1844
01:53:06,531 --> 01:53:09,576
he and Michael Hobbs Jr.
had been playing football in the yard.
1845
01:53:09,784 --> 01:53:12,954
And when they got done playing football,
they came into the house,
1846
01:53:13,121 --> 01:53:16,040
got a drink and were gonna
go to the basement to play pool.
1847
01:53:16,207 --> 01:53:19,252
SISK:
Michael said, you know,
that his uncle and dad
1848
01:53:19,461 --> 01:53:21,671
were in their downstairs basement,
1849
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:26,050
and we were gonna go downstairs,
but his dad hollered,
1850
01:53:26,259 --> 01:53:29,387
you know, "Don't come down here,
we're busy talking."
1851
01:53:29,596 --> 01:53:33,433
So me and Michael
decided to listen in.
1852
01:53:33,641 --> 01:53:35,977
BRAGA:
Michael Hobbs Jr. told the witness
1853
01:53:36,186 --> 01:53:39,189
that his dad was down there
with his uncle,
1854
01:53:39,355 --> 01:53:42,275
sounding like
he might have been crying, saying:
1855
01:53:42,442 --> 01:53:45,653
"I'm sorry for what happened
and I regret it."
1856
01:53:45,862 --> 01:53:49,073
Michael's dad was just consoling him
about, you know, the situation
1857
01:53:49,282 --> 01:53:52,368
and everything would be all right.
"You're not in any trouble."
1858
01:53:52,577 --> 01:53:54,579
A number of years later,
he and a friend
1859
01:53:54,787 --> 01:53:59,209
were picked up by Michael Hobbs Jr.
in Michael Hobbs Jr.'s truck.
1860
01:53:59,417 --> 01:54:02,504
My name's Cody Gott. This is fine.
1861
01:54:02,670 --> 01:54:06,841
You can use this for whatever you need
to use it for. You have my permission.
1862
01:54:07,008 --> 01:54:11,054
When he picked us up, it was like--
It wasn't the same Michael that I--
1863
01:54:11,262 --> 01:54:14,057
You know what I mean? He wasn't...
1864
01:54:14,390 --> 01:54:17,310
Wasn't in the same mood
that he usually is.
1865
01:54:17,519 --> 01:54:20,104
He's usually outgoing,
like, ready to go do something.
1866
01:54:20,313 --> 01:54:22,941
Ready to talk, ready to--
And he was just real quiet.
1867
01:54:23,149 --> 01:54:28,905
He wasn't as talkative, and I asked him
what was going on and he...
1868
01:54:29,113 --> 01:54:30,448
"What's up, man?"
1869
01:54:30,657 --> 01:54:33,660
And he said, he told me that:
1870
01:54:33,868 --> 01:54:37,705
"My uncle Terry,
he killed those kids
1871
01:54:37,914 --> 01:54:41,042
in that case,
in the West Memphis Three case."
1872
01:54:41,251 --> 01:54:46,839
And then he was like, well, "My dad
told me that my uncle's the one
1873
01:54:47,048 --> 01:54:51,386
who murdered those three kids and
it's been, you know, on my mind all day.
1874
01:54:51,594 --> 01:54:54,013
It's been just running
through my head."
1875
01:54:54,222 --> 01:54:58,393
And I was just in shock,
I didn't really know what to say.
1876
01:54:58,601 --> 01:55:01,896
Then, according to Michael Hobbs Jr.,
the second witness says
1877
01:55:02,105 --> 01:55:07,735
that his dad called this, quote,
"the Hobbs' family secret," close quote.
1878
01:55:07,944 --> 01:55:10,697
SISK:
He said, "Only me, my dad, my uncle"
1879
01:55:10,905 --> 01:55:13,116
and I think maybe his mom
1880
01:55:13,324 --> 01:55:15,743
and someone else in the family
might have knew.
1881
01:55:15,952 --> 01:55:18,037
It might have been the other brother.
1882
01:55:18,204 --> 01:55:20,540
He called it the Hobbs' family secret,
and he said:
1883
01:55:20,707 --> 01:55:23,918
"if they knew I told you,
I would be in deep crap."
1884
01:55:24,127 --> 01:55:26,296
B RAGA:
There was one third friend
that they thought
1885
01:55:26,504 --> 01:55:30,466
might also have some information.
What this third witness told me:
1886
01:55:30,633 --> 01:55:34,762
"Michael Hobbs Jr.
and I and a third friend were
playing pool in the basement.
1887
01:55:34,971 --> 01:55:37,307
During the game,
the third friend said something
1888
01:55:37,515 --> 01:55:39,809
about the West Memphis Three case."
1889
01:55:40,018 --> 01:55:42,770
Then this young man,
the third witness, asked:
1890
01:55:42,979 --> 01:55:44,939
"What's the
West Memphis Three case?"
1891
01:55:45,148 --> 01:55:46,983
Might be the only teenager
in Arkansas
1892
01:55:47,191 --> 01:55:49,861
who didn't know what
the West Memphis Three case was.
1893
01:55:50,069 --> 01:55:52,196
He asked that question
and Michael Hobbs Jr.
1894
01:55:52,363 --> 01:55:54,490
responded to him by saying, quote:
1895
01:55:54,657 --> 01:55:58,036
"My uncle killed three kids
in West Memphis," close quote.
1896
01:55:58,244 --> 01:56:00,913
And according to this third witness,
Michael Hobbs Jr.
1897
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:04,167
was dead serious when he said this.
He was not fooling around.
1898
01:56:06,753 --> 01:56:10,465
In addition to getting them to sign the
declarations under penalty of perjury,
1899
01:56:10,673 --> 01:56:14,093
they all took polygraph examinations.
1900
01:56:14,302 --> 01:56:17,138
The polygraph examiner concluded
that these three young men
1901
01:56:17,347 --> 01:56:21,893
were absolutely telling the truth about
what they heard Michael Hobbs Jr. say.
1902
01:56:22,060 --> 01:56:24,479
I don't even think Michael knows
why he did it.
1903
01:56:24,646 --> 01:56:28,274
I just-- You know, he knows
it happened, he knows he did it.
1904
01:56:28,483 --> 01:56:33,488
And it was his dad--
His dad is-- Probably would know,
1905
01:56:33,696 --> 01:56:35,990
you know, why he did it.
1906
01:56:36,199 --> 01:56:38,368
We don't have any power
as defense attorneys
1907
01:56:38,576 --> 01:56:42,413
to call Michael Hobbs Sr. into my office
and to ask him to tell me
1908
01:56:42,622 --> 01:56:45,625
whether he called this the
Hobbs' family secret and why he did.
1909
01:56:45,833 --> 01:56:48,086
The prosecutor can issue
a grand jury subpoena
1910
01:56:48,294 --> 01:56:50,546
and ask Michael Hobbs Sr.
In the grand jury
1911
01:56:50,755 --> 01:56:55,093
where he's under penalty of perjury
if he lies, "Did you say this?
1912
01:56:55,301 --> 01:56:57,804
Why'd you say it?
What did you mean?"
1913
01:56:58,012 --> 01:57:00,223
And I think
that's the kind of information
1914
01:57:00,431 --> 01:57:04,394
that only the prosecutor can get
that could really crack this wide open.
1915
01:57:04,602 --> 01:57:07,397
TERRY [OVER PHONE]:
I don't give a shit
what happened 17 years ago.
1916
01:57:07,605 --> 01:57:09,315
I know what didn't happen.
1917
01:57:09,524 --> 01:57:13,736
Me and you didn't do nothing wrong.
So fuck them motherfuckers.
1918
01:57:14,445 --> 01:57:19,283
CINDY:
We're proud people. We don't have
no reason to tuck our head.
1919
01:57:20,326 --> 01:57:24,163
You hit a bump in the road, you wasn't
expecting a speed bump being there,
1920
01:57:24,330 --> 01:57:27,250
but you pick yourself up on other side
of that speed bump
1921
01:57:27,417 --> 01:57:30,503
and go, "Damn, I didn't see
that one coming," and keep on going.
1922
01:57:30,670 --> 01:57:32,922
Pam's a speed bump.
I'll put her that way.
1923
01:57:33,965 --> 01:57:37,260
PAM:
Was Terry capable? Did Terry do it?
1924
01:57:37,468 --> 01:57:42,223
Did I stay with a man
that possibly murdered my child?
1925
01:57:42,432 --> 01:57:47,437
And it does raise a lot of questions.
1926
01:57:49,105 --> 01:57:51,107
[Hr]
1927
01:57:55,069 --> 01:57:59,699
The court rejected every single thing
that the state argued.
1928
01:57:59,866 --> 01:58:04,203
Basically saying Burnett was wrong in
not allowing a hearing based on the DNA.
1929
01:58:04,412 --> 01:58:09,333
One, by one, by one.
Just no, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
1930
01:58:09,917 --> 01:58:14,046
Finally the Supreme Court
has ruled in our favor.
1931
01:58:14,213 --> 01:58:18,676
Uh, we could not be more excited.
It was unanimous.
1932
01:58:18,885 --> 01:58:20,887
This is huge
for Arkansas.
1933
01:58:21,095 --> 01:58:23,431
The Supreme Court is--
Has ruled in our favor.
1934
01:58:23,639 --> 01:58:27,852
The State Supreme Court
is on our side.
1935
01:58:28,060 --> 01:58:30,146
Finally. We won. We won.
1936
01:58:30,354 --> 01:58:34,358
REPORTER:
The mother of Stevie Branch,
one of the three 8-year-olds killed
1937
01:58:34,567 --> 01:58:36,819
in that murder,
joins us now on the phone.
1938
01:58:37,028 --> 01:58:40,198
What is your reaction to the ruling
by the Arkansas Supreme Court
1939
01:58:40,364 --> 01:58:42,325
that the killers
can have a new hearing?
1940
01:58:42,533 --> 01:58:47,997
PAM [OVER PHONE]:
My reaction to it is, now with
the DNA evidence and things
1941
01:58:48,206 --> 01:58:52,126
that doesn't point
to the three men convicted,
1942
01:58:52,335 --> 01:58:56,506
that lets me know for sure
they didn't lay a hand on my son.
1943
01:59:01,219 --> 01:59:04,847
DAMIEN [OVER PHONE]:
They keep constantly pushing
the date of the hearing back.
1944
01:59:05,056 --> 01:59:07,141
First they told us
it was gonna be in June.
1945
01:59:08,601 --> 01:59:11,103
Then they told us
it was gonna be in October.
1946
01:59:11,979 --> 01:59:15,191
Now they've pushed it
all the way back to December.
1947
01:59:15,983 --> 01:59:18,194
RIORDAN:
The wake of the victory was probably
1948
01:59:18,402 --> 01:59:21,280
the most difficult
and frustrating time for Lorri of all.
1949
01:59:21,447 --> 01:59:26,077
LORRI:
"Dearest Lorri, you never, ever need
to apologize for how you are feeling.
1950
01:59:26,244 --> 01:59:28,913
I totally understand what you said,
and why you said it,
1951
01:59:29,121 --> 01:59:31,916
and I'm glad you felt
you could say it to me.
1952
01:59:32,124 --> 01:59:34,377
This situation is so very hard.
1953
01:59:34,585 --> 01:59:37,213
You and Damien
have been treading water for years
1954
01:59:37,421 --> 01:59:40,007
and the shore never seems
to get any closer.
1955
01:59:40,216 --> 01:59:42,051
It's no wonder you feel like giving up."
1956
01:59:42,260 --> 01:59:45,888
After years and years of filing
and hear-- You know, this and that
1957
01:59:46,097 --> 01:59:47,807
and never-ending bureaucracy,
1958
01:59:48,015 --> 01:59:50,017
it keeps going back and forth.
1959
01:59:50,226 --> 01:59:55,147
RIORDAN:
To go 16 or 17 years and finally have
what was a remarkable victory,
1960
01:59:55,356 --> 01:59:57,191
and not simply for the three,
1961
01:59:57,400 --> 02:00:00,987
but about the whole nature
of DNA testing in Arkansas.
1962
02:00:01,195 --> 02:00:05,491
And then say, "Well, when will this
actually lead to Damien being released?"
1963
02:00:05,700 --> 02:00:07,952
And the answer being,
you know, who knows?
1964
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:11,497
LORRI:
"it took me a while to understand
what you must have learned long ago.
1965
02:00:11,706 --> 02:00:15,001
Nothing, and I mean nothing,
comes easily with this case.
1966
02:00:15,209 --> 02:00:16,586
The breakthroughs are small
1967
02:00:16,794 --> 02:00:19,422
and the obstacles never seem
to decrease in size.
1968
02:00:19,630 --> 02:00:23,259
Any small piece of progress
is clawed from unforgiving rock.
1969
02:00:23,467 --> 02:00:25,303
All we can do is keep going.
1970
02:00:25,511 --> 02:00:29,640
If we keep on pounding on the wall,
it will break, because it must break.
1971
02:00:29,849 --> 02:00:32,393
All things eventually break.
1972
02:00:32,602 --> 02:00:36,230
I would love to see photos of the 1920s
house in Garton when you have them.
1973
02:00:36,439 --> 02:00:37,648
It sounds wonderful.
1974
02:00:37,857 --> 02:00:40,484
Sending much love to you always,
Fran."
1975
02:00:41,527 --> 02:00:43,195
DAMIEN [OVER PHONE]:
You're so worn down,
1976
02:00:43,404 --> 02:00:46,574
you know, you might get something
like say a common cold,
1977
02:00:46,782 --> 02:00:50,661
and the next thing you know, you're
laying in bed sick for next six months.
1978
02:00:50,870 --> 02:00:53,497
LORRI:
Damien, you know, he's struggling
1979
02:00:53,706 --> 02:00:58,127
because of the health issues
he's facing in prison,
1980
02:00:58,336 --> 02:01:02,048
just not having adequate nutrition,
not being able to go into the sunlight.
1981
02:01:02,256 --> 02:01:06,886
You know, lack of vitamin D.
His eyesight is starting to dim.
1982
02:01:07,053 --> 02:01:08,804
[Hr]
1983
02:01:08,971 --> 02:01:12,016
DAMIEN [OVER PHONE]:
Everything in your body
is just hurting and shut down.
1984
02:01:12,183 --> 02:01:15,561
LORRI:
Mm-hm. It made me
wanna be nicer to you.
1985
02:01:15,728 --> 02:01:17,730
[LORRI LAUGHS]
1986
02:01:17,897 --> 02:01:18,940
It did!
1987
02:01:19,148 --> 02:01:21,192
STIDHAM:
Sometimes it appears to me that
1988
02:01:21,400 --> 02:01:25,947
the attitude of the players involved
in this case are:
1989
02:01:26,155 --> 02:01:29,075
"Let's sweep this under the rug,
let's hope it goes away."
1990
02:01:29,283 --> 02:01:31,327
No one wants to admit
they made a mistake.
1991
02:01:31,535 --> 02:01:35,957
What about the lawsuits
that are gonna follow?
1992
02:01:36,165 --> 02:01:38,250
And who cares about that issue?
1993
02:01:38,459 --> 02:01:42,088
Let's just do the right thing,
it's simple to do the right thing.
1994
02:01:49,053 --> 02:01:52,974
BRAGA:
Something we had always planned on
doing was to try to get the state to agree:
1995
02:01:53,182 --> 02:01:56,018
"Let's just go right to the new trial,
because, of course,
1996
02:01:56,185 --> 02:01:58,896
Damien and Jason and Jessie
are sitting in the cooler
1997
02:01:59,063 --> 02:02:01,232
each time there's a delay.
Let's get to it."
1998
02:02:01,399 --> 02:02:03,401
[Hr]
1999
02:02:05,653 --> 02:02:08,155
JACKSON:
So the defense decided to approach
the state and say:
2000
02:02:08,364 --> 02:02:12,910
"Hey, let's skip the evidentiary hearing
and just go straight to a new trial."
2001
02:02:14,161 --> 02:02:18,332
BRAGA:
Two weeks ago yesterday, we sent
Patrick Benca, our local counsel,
2002
02:02:18,541 --> 02:02:22,336
in to have a lunch meeting with
Dustin McDaniel, the attorney general.
2003
02:02:22,545 --> 02:02:26,090
BENCA:
I've known Dustin from law school and
I knew he'd be approachable about it.
2004
02:02:26,298 --> 02:02:29,135
I wasn't sure whether he would
take it in consideration.
2005
02:02:29,343 --> 02:02:34,056
Matter of fact, during the lunch
he said to me, "That's a big ask."
2006
02:02:34,223 --> 02:02:37,810
Um, but I felt that he was listening
to everything that I had to say.
2007
02:02:38,769 --> 02:02:42,106
BRAGA:
Much to our surprise, the discussions
progressed sort of away
2008
02:02:42,314 --> 02:02:44,817
from the
"agree to the new trial" idea to
2009
02:02:45,026 --> 02:02:48,904
is there a way to reach a practical
resolution of this case for everybody?
2010
02:02:50,197 --> 02:02:51,949
The attorney general brought in
2011
02:02:52,158 --> 02:02:54,910
Scott Ellington,
a circuit county prosecutor.
2012
02:02:55,119 --> 02:02:57,455
He came to Little Rock
with a bunch of his lawyers.
2013
02:02:57,621 --> 02:03:02,710
The defense attorneys have
maintained complete innocence
2014
02:03:02,877 --> 02:03:05,546
on behalf of the defendants
all this time.
2015
02:03:05,713 --> 02:03:09,925
I mean, I don't underestimate our ability
to have obtained convictions
2016
02:03:10,134 --> 02:03:11,469
in these cases.
2017
02:03:11,677 --> 02:03:15,306
But I wasn't looking forward
to having to go to trial in this case,
2018
02:03:15,514 --> 02:03:20,895
because of the deterioration
of evidence.
2019
02:03:21,103 --> 02:03:25,357
Memories lost.
You know, stories changed.
2020
02:03:25,566 --> 02:03:28,986
Every time there was a filing,
you know, there was a DNA...
2021
02:03:29,195 --> 02:03:32,406
Came out in the paper
that there's new DNA, new DNA.
2022
02:03:33,032 --> 02:03:36,243
I was not looking forward to that.
2023
02:03:37,536 --> 02:03:42,541
We didn't want to show weakness
in maintaining the judgment,
2024
02:03:42,750 --> 02:03:48,297
so one of our positions was
the state is not making an offer.
2025
02:03:48,506 --> 02:03:51,675
BRAGA:
The state said they're guilty.
Our guys said they're innocent.
2026
02:03:51,884 --> 02:03:53,594
How do you bridge those two gaps?
2027
02:03:53,761 --> 02:03:55,763
There's only a couple
of options in between.
2028
02:03:55,930 --> 02:03:57,306
We started making our pitches.
2029
02:03:57,515 --> 02:03:59,809
We started making our pitch
for the Alford plea,
2030
02:03:59,975 --> 02:04:01,894
which we talked about
before going in.
2031
02:04:02,853 --> 02:04:07,191
BRAGA:
It's not a perfect resolution.
It will be a guilty plea,
2032
02:04:07,358 --> 02:04:10,277
but it's a very, very rare
and unique kind of guilty plea
2033
02:04:10,486 --> 02:04:13,155
where you get to
maintain your innocence.
2034
02:04:13,364 --> 02:04:15,449
Prosecutors hardly ever allow this,
2035
02:04:15,658 --> 02:04:18,786
and judges have the right to say,
"We're not gonna accept it
2036
02:04:18,953 --> 02:04:22,456
because can't maintain your innocence
and plead guilty at the same time."
2037
02:04:22,665 --> 02:04:25,292
It kind of seems oxymoronic.
2038
02:04:25,501 --> 02:04:29,296
ELLINGTON:
I'm-- I guess I'm kind of
a "shoot from the hip" guy to start with.
2039
02:04:29,505 --> 02:04:33,509
I kind of jumped on it real quick
and then the attorney general and I
2040
02:04:33,717 --> 02:04:37,054
visited just briefly and he was like:
2041
02:04:37,263 --> 02:04:39,723
"Are you sure
that you want to agree to this?
2042
02:04:39,932 --> 02:04:45,521
Are you sure this is the right thing
for you, politically?"
2043
02:04:45,729 --> 02:04:48,482
Because he knows
I'm elected as a prosecutor.
2044
02:04:48,691 --> 02:04:50,442
And this could backfire.
2045
02:04:50,651 --> 02:04:54,822
BRAGA:
We knew what we really needed to make
this deal, which is really only two points.
2046
02:04:54,989 --> 02:04:56,365
We needed it to be a deal
2047
02:04:56,532 --> 02:04:59,451
where the West Memphis Three
could maintain their innocence.
2048
02:04:59,618 --> 02:05:03,414
And we needed it to be a deal where they
got out of prison the day it was entered.
2049
02:05:03,581 --> 02:05:06,458
Not two years from now.
Not, "We'll consider you for parole."
2050
02:05:06,625 --> 02:05:08,377
Not 10 years more.
2051
02:05:08,586 --> 02:05:11,755
Enter the plea, maintain your innocence,
get out of jail.
2052
02:05:11,964 --> 02:05:13,966
[Hr]
2053
02:05:15,718 --> 02:05:19,138
This notice was released today out of
the Craighead County Circuit Court.
2054
02:05:19,305 --> 02:05:22,308
It's vague, saying that the court
will take up certain matters
2055
02:05:22,516 --> 02:05:25,186
pertaining to the West Memphis Three
case tomorrow.
2056
02:05:25,394 --> 02:05:27,229
BRAGA:
It went to Damien first,
2057
02:05:27,938 --> 02:05:30,149
and Damien readily accepted it.
2058
02:05:31,150 --> 02:05:33,527
How you doing?
BRAGA: Then the deal went to Jessie.
2059
02:05:33,736 --> 02:05:35,362
Been a while.
It has been a while.
2060
02:05:35,571 --> 02:05:37,990
BRAGA: And Jessie accepted it.
We're almost home.
2061
02:05:38,199 --> 02:05:43,162
Which means by the time it got to Jason,
Jason had the full veto power.
2062
02:05:43,329 --> 02:05:45,706
If he said yes,
the deal would work for everybody.
2063
02:05:45,915 --> 02:05:49,793
If he said no, everybody was left
right where they were, in prison.
2064
02:05:50,002 --> 02:05:52,630
JESSIE SR.:
I come home, turn the TV on,
it's all over TV.
2065
02:05:52,838 --> 02:05:56,300
Rumor mill got started this afternoon,
and it's all over the place,
2066
02:05:56,508 --> 02:05:59,428
but I think everything's gonna
work out fine in the morning.
2067
02:06:00,971 --> 02:06:03,724
BRAGA:
His position was,
"I, Jason, would rather stay in jail,
2068
02:06:03,933 --> 02:06:06,268
and fight this
with my last dying breath
2069
02:06:06,477 --> 02:06:09,480
until somebody recognizes
I am 100 percent innocent."
2070
02:06:09,688 --> 02:06:14,235
REPORTER:
There are reports that at least two
of the infamous West Memphis Three
2071
02:06:14,443 --> 02:06:16,320
could be released from prison.
2072
02:06:16,528 --> 02:06:19,657
And I told him
that I wanted three or nothing.
2073
02:06:22,284 --> 02:06:24,286
[SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY
2074
02:06:24,995 --> 02:06:28,082
I didn't sleep much.
I think the last time I looked at the clock
2075
02:06:28,290 --> 02:06:30,292
it was 4:00 this morning.
2076
02:06:31,585 --> 02:06:35,130
Mixed emotions,
all type of things, so...
2077
02:06:35,339 --> 02:06:37,341
[CROWD CHATTERING]
2078
02:06:38,425 --> 02:06:40,261
REPORTER:
What do you think is going to happen?
2079
02:06:40,427 --> 02:06:43,847
Are you pretty sure, are you not sure,
you doubtful this would happen?
2080
02:06:44,056 --> 02:06:45,975
I'm not sure, I'm doubtful,
I don't know.
2081
02:06:46,183 --> 02:06:50,187
I'm just a pawn in this,
just like they are.
2082
02:06:50,396 --> 02:06:53,023
They've been a pawn
in this the whole time.
2083
02:06:53,232 --> 02:06:57,027
Now, I have to say, because I've been in
the Arkansas Department of Correction,
2084
02:06:57,236 --> 02:06:59,655
I understand
where they're coming from.
2085
02:06:59,863 --> 02:07:02,283
If I had to roll the dice
for my freedom
2086
02:07:02,491 --> 02:07:06,287
or get out today
by copping to a lesser plea,
2087
02:07:06,495 --> 02:07:09,915
I would probably take the plea
to get out of prison.
2088
02:07:10,124 --> 02:07:14,128
But then I'm stuck the rest
of my life with the stigma,
2089
02:07:14,295 --> 02:07:16,797
while the real killer walks free.
REPORTER: Who do you believe
2090
02:07:16,964 --> 02:07:18,716
This is notjustice! is the real killer?
2091
02:07:19,091 --> 02:07:22,553
No comment.
REPORTER: No comment?
2092
02:07:23,220 --> 02:07:25,848
Do you feel any relief?
No.
2093
02:07:26,056 --> 02:07:27,683
None?
2094
02:07:28,475 --> 02:07:29,518
I gotta go.
2095
02:07:32,062 --> 02:07:34,273
REPORTER:
What are you gonna do next, Terry?
2096
02:07:34,481 --> 02:07:37,318
Hey, hey, Terry,
just for a second...
2097
02:07:38,068 --> 02:07:41,280
BYERS:
There's the baby-killer. Talk to him.
2098
02:07:44,074 --> 02:07:46,076
This is a free world.
I can say what I want.
2099
02:07:46,285 --> 02:07:48,120
Freedom of speech,
First Amendment right.
2100
02:07:48,329 --> 02:07:52,166
I contacted the other attorneys,
asking them what was up.
2101
02:07:52,374 --> 02:07:54,376
If they knew anything
that was going on.
2102
02:07:54,585 --> 02:07:59,214
They really indicated
that they didn't know.
2103
02:08:01,175 --> 02:08:04,011
VEDDER:
Jason was quite resolute
2104
02:08:04,219 --> 02:08:08,432
and not agreeing
to taking the Alford plea.
2105
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:11,602
And, I mean, really that's about
2106
02:08:11,810 --> 02:08:16,940
the biggest illustration of his innocence
that you could ever imagine.
2107
02:08:17,691 --> 02:08:19,526
But this was really coming to a head,
2108
02:08:19,735 --> 02:08:24,073
and we didn't know how long
this offer was gonna be on the table.
2109
02:08:24,281 --> 02:08:26,492
And it was there for the taking.
2110
02:08:26,700 --> 02:08:30,037
LORRI:
We were trying to figure out
alternate ways to get in touch with him.
2111
02:08:30,245 --> 02:08:33,582
Somebody who cares about him
and loves him needs to be talking to him.
2112
02:08:33,791 --> 02:08:37,044
We need to get Holly.
It's busy.
2113
02:08:38,045 --> 02:08:40,255
I'm just gonna keep dialing
over and over.
2114
02:08:40,464 --> 02:08:43,092
You know, over the years
we've just grown to be...
2115
02:08:43,300 --> 02:08:46,470
I mean, I'm closer to Jason Baldwin
than I am to many people
2116
02:08:46,678 --> 02:08:49,098
that I have known my entire life.
2117
02:08:49,306 --> 02:08:54,269
Everybody just cannot believe
that he would choose to stay in prison
2118
02:08:54,436 --> 02:08:57,398
when he can walk out,
no matter what the reasons are.
2119
02:08:59,149 --> 02:09:02,152
I got a call from Lorri.
2120
02:09:02,361 --> 02:09:04,738
She said, "I'm gonna ask
Eddie Vedder to call you."
2121
02:09:05,823 --> 02:09:09,576
VEDDER:
I was trying to explain to Jason, look,
anyone's gonna have to understand
2122
02:09:09,785 --> 02:09:11,954
locally and globally,
2123
02:09:12,162 --> 02:09:15,958
State of Arkansas is not gonna let go
of three convicted child murderers
2124
02:09:17,167 --> 02:09:21,713
based on time served.
It's implied that they don't have enough.
2125
02:09:21,922 --> 02:09:26,301
They don't have enough to keep them in.
They don't have enough to win a trial.
2126
02:09:26,969 --> 02:09:30,973
HOLLY:
I was able to get a call in to the prison
to have Jason give me a call.
2127
02:09:31,181 --> 02:09:33,934
He said, "This isn't fair.
2128
02:09:34,143 --> 02:09:36,562
I don't wanna concede
anything to the state."
2129
02:09:36,770 --> 02:09:40,774
He did not wanna talk about it,
and he didn't call back.
2130
02:09:40,983 --> 02:09:42,776
And I was devastated.
2131
02:09:42,985 --> 02:09:46,989
VEDDER:
I believed in his decision,
and I didn't wanna question it.
2132
02:09:47,197 --> 02:09:52,035
I would never ask another man
to compromise his ideals.
2133
02:09:52,244 --> 02:09:55,080
But it was so close to freedom.
2134
02:09:55,289 --> 02:09:57,916
It was unbearable.
2135
02:09:59,418 --> 02:10:01,420
Not hearing from him
2136
02:10:01,628 --> 02:10:06,800
and not knowing what he was thinking
was unbearable.
2137
02:10:10,554 --> 02:10:13,182
LEVERITT:
Jason Baldwin is 16 years old.
2138
02:10:13,390 --> 02:10:15,225
He's been in jail for months.
2139
02:10:15,392 --> 02:10:16,977
And he's about to enter a trial
2140
02:10:17,144 --> 02:10:19,980
where prosecutors are going to ask
for the death sentence.
2141
02:10:20,189 --> 02:10:22,191
He's offered two deals in secret
2142
02:10:22,399 --> 02:10:26,236
if he would testify
that Echols had done the killing.
2143
02:10:27,029 --> 02:10:30,240
He tells the prosecutors,
"No, that would be a lie.
2144
02:10:30,449 --> 02:10:33,202
My mother raised me
better than that."
2145
02:10:33,410 --> 02:10:37,039
The 16-year-old refused,
not once, but twice.
2146
02:10:37,247 --> 02:10:40,751
HOLLY:
At 16 years old,
it never even crossed his mind
2147
02:10:40,959 --> 02:10:45,172
to throw somebody
under the bus to save his own skin.
2148
02:10:46,048 --> 02:10:48,467
So Monday night,
I get this call from him.
2149
02:10:48,675 --> 02:10:51,261
He says, "Neither option is really fair."
2150
02:10:51,428 --> 02:10:54,973
I said to him, "if you wanted to do
something you didn't feel right about,
2151
02:10:55,140 --> 02:10:57,768
you could have done that
18 years ago and gone free."
2152
02:10:57,935 --> 02:11:00,479
And he said,
"Yeah, but the difference is, this time
2153
02:11:00,646 --> 02:11:03,232
I can set Damien free
by my decision."
2154
02:11:04,274 --> 02:11:08,695
I mean, that was his best friend,
you know.
2155
02:11:11,990 --> 02:11:16,078
This deal sucks,
but we want their freedom.
2156
02:11:16,745 --> 02:11:18,747
BAILIFF:
All rise.
2157
02:11:19,456 --> 02:11:23,126
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
Be seated, those of you who can.
2158
02:11:23,293 --> 02:11:25,963
We are still waiting
to find out...
2159
02:11:26,171 --> 02:11:30,634
I am David Laser, Circuit Judge
of Division 9, the Second Judicial District.
2160
02:11:30,842 --> 02:11:34,429
--Continue today for this 11:00 hearing
on the West Memphis Three.
2161
02:11:34,638 --> 02:11:36,431
Will they be set free today?
2162
02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:39,268
Answer still unknown but,
of course, we will continue...
2163
02:11:39,476 --> 02:11:41,478
LASER:
Mr. Echols, Mr. Baldwin,
Mr. Misskelley,
2164
02:11:41,687 --> 02:11:45,649
if you would stand, please,
and face the court.
2165
02:11:45,857 --> 02:11:50,028
Spend a lot of time trying to
explain it. They had a private,
closed-door hearing...
2166
02:11:50,237 --> 02:11:53,865
LASER:
Mr. Echols, how do you wish
to plead in this case?
2167
02:11:54,074 --> 02:11:56,827
Your Honor,
I am innocent of these charges,
2168
02:11:57,035 --> 02:12:01,665
but I'm entering an Alford guilty plea
today based on advice of my council.
2169
02:12:01,873 --> 02:12:04,751
And my understanding
that it's in my best interest to do so
2170
02:12:04,918 --> 02:12:06,753
given the entire record of the case.
2171
02:12:06,962 --> 02:12:10,382
LASER:
Same as relates to you, Mr. Misskelley.
How do you wish to plead?
2172
02:12:10,591 --> 02:12:15,596
I am pleading guilty under North Carolina
v. Alford in the Arkansas rules.
2173
02:12:15,804 --> 02:12:18,223
Although I am innocent.
2174
02:12:19,933 --> 02:12:23,520
This is--
And this plea is in my best interest.
2175
02:12:24,563 --> 02:12:28,191
Everybody just be patient.
We're waiting too, like everyone else.
2176
02:12:28,400 --> 02:12:30,694
Just gotta stay in place.
2177
02:12:30,902 --> 02:12:35,282
LASER:
Mr. Baldwin, how do you choose
to plead in this case?
2178
02:12:35,490 --> 02:12:38,410
[CHATTERING]
2179
02:12:38,619 --> 02:12:41,622
Your Honor, first of all
I am innocent of murdering
2180
02:12:41,830 --> 02:12:44,666
Christopher Byers,
Michael Moore and Steven Branch.
2181
02:12:44,875 --> 02:12:49,087
However, after serving 18 years
in the penitentiary for such,
2182
02:12:49,296 --> 02:12:52,924
I agree that it's in the state's
best interest, as well as my own,
2183
02:12:53,133 --> 02:12:55,969
that based upon
North Carolina v. Alford
2184
02:12:56,178 --> 02:13:00,182
that I plead guilty
for first-degree murder for those crimes.
2185
02:13:00,390 --> 02:13:01,600
LASER:
All right.
2186
02:13:01,808 --> 02:13:05,395
The court finds that
there is a factual basis for the plea,
2187
02:13:05,604 --> 02:13:11,568
that the pleas are voluntary and will be
accepted and received by the court.
2188
02:13:12,986 --> 02:13:15,864
I'm aware of the controversy
that's existed.
2189
02:13:16,073 --> 02:13:18,867
I'm aware of the involvement
of the people in this case.
2190
02:13:19,076 --> 02:13:23,747
I don't think it'll make the pain go away
to the victims' families.
2191
02:13:24,831 --> 02:13:30,253
I don't think it will take away a minute
of the 18 years
2192
02:13:30,462 --> 02:13:32,964
that these three young men served
2193
02:13:33,131 --> 02:13:36,468
in the Arkansas Department
of Corrections.
2194
02:13:37,636 --> 02:13:41,473
What I've just described
is tragedy on all sides.
2195
02:13:41,682 --> 02:13:45,894
And I commend people in the case
that have assisted towards the end
2196
02:13:46,103 --> 02:13:50,315
of seeing that justice is served
to the best that we can do.
2197
02:13:50,524 --> 02:13:53,151
VEDDER:
The tremendous judge.
2198
02:13:53,402 --> 02:13:57,739
Um... He didn't have to say the things
that he did at the end.
2199
02:13:58,365 --> 02:14:04,579
Sometimes outside help
is in fact a big help,
2200
02:14:04,788 --> 02:14:09,209
and for those of you who have been
a participant in that regard
2201
02:14:09,418 --> 02:14:13,422
that are here, I commend you
personally and publicly
2202
02:14:13,630 --> 02:14:16,383
for having done that.
2203
02:14:16,591 --> 02:14:18,969
[Hr]
2204
02:14:19,136 --> 02:14:24,015
VEDDER:
It was great to see a crowd of people
outside of the courthouse,
2205
02:14:24,224 --> 02:14:28,395
you know, 18 years ago
were screaming for blood.
2206
02:14:28,562 --> 02:14:30,397
[SIREN WHOOPING]
2207
02:14:30,605 --> 02:14:35,235
VEDDER:
And Damien, Jessie and Jason
walked outwith their hands held high
2208
02:14:35,444 --> 02:14:39,823
and the crowd is cheering
and supporting them.
2209
02:14:39,990 --> 02:14:41,992
[CROWD CHEERING]
2210
02:15:00,969 --> 02:15:02,971
[CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING]
2211
02:15:04,514 --> 02:15:07,309
Some are happy, some are angry
and some are perplexed,
2212
02:15:07,517 --> 02:15:11,313
and that's the case at the end of
every trial, and this one is no different.
2213
02:15:11,521 --> 02:15:14,858
First of all, I understand
that nobody in that room
2214
02:15:15,066 --> 02:15:19,446
wanted to hear from me, particularly.
2215
02:15:19,654 --> 02:15:23,116
I needed to be heard by my voters,
2216
02:15:23,325 --> 02:15:25,869
and I needed to offer
some explanation.
2217
02:15:26,077 --> 02:15:27,871
I'll tell you, let me tell you this.
2218
02:15:28,079 --> 02:15:31,124
This judge was most likely
going to grant a new trial.
2219
02:15:31,333 --> 02:15:34,377
As far as gathering up evidence,
I hadn't gotten there yet.
2220
02:15:34,586 --> 02:15:37,798
I've not reviewed reams and reams
and volumes and boxes and boxes,
2221
02:15:38,006 --> 02:15:41,218
but the evidence I've seen,
I believe these guys are guilty.
2222
02:15:41,426 --> 02:15:42,844
I know they pled guilty.
2223
02:15:43,053 --> 02:15:44,888
With their entry of a plea of guilty,
2224
02:15:45,096 --> 02:15:49,976
we have removed the question
2225
02:15:50,143 --> 02:15:52,646
of them filing a civil law suit
against the state
2226
02:15:52,854 --> 02:15:55,190
that could result
in many millions of dollars.
2227
02:15:55,398 --> 02:15:57,984
I mean,
because you have three individuals
2228
02:15:58,193 --> 02:16:02,906
times 18 years is 54,
I mean, so, 60ish?
2229
02:16:03,114 --> 02:16:05,408
I have spoken with members
of victims' families
2230
02:16:05,617 --> 02:16:09,538
and I can tell you that they are
still suffering the loss of the little boys.
2231
02:16:09,746 --> 02:16:11,915
We put to rest a question
for these families
2232
02:16:12,123 --> 02:16:14,251
of the little boys that were killed.
2233
02:16:14,459 --> 02:16:17,671
These three individuals
pied guilty to the murder
2234
02:16:17,879 --> 02:16:19,965
of those three little boys that day.
2235
02:16:20,173 --> 02:16:23,009
That put that matter to rest.
2236
02:16:23,218 --> 02:16:25,470
Period. End of sentence.
2237
02:16:25,679 --> 02:16:28,765
JASON:
Heh. I don't even know where to begin.
2238
02:16:28,932 --> 02:16:30,267
I guess we eat, right?
2239
02:16:30,433 --> 02:16:36,398
I was dead-set against this, like a mule.
And I am not moving an inch.
2240
02:16:37,482 --> 02:16:40,068
I was just trapped up in it,
just by myself.
2241
02:16:40,277 --> 02:16:43,488
You reminded me that I'm not by myself
and I gotta think of everybody.
2242
02:16:43,697 --> 02:16:46,908
I have absolutely no idea
what I'm doing.
2243
02:16:47,617 --> 02:16:50,620
I'm just enjoying
the moment, right?
2244
02:16:51,121 --> 02:16:52,747
I think that's cheese.
2245
02:16:52,956 --> 02:16:55,125
You think it's what?
There's cheese in there.
2246
02:16:55,333 --> 02:16:59,963
Yeah. Cheese. Have you had cheese?
Yeah, but not in a salad.
2247
02:17:00,839 --> 02:17:04,634
All right, I'm done with the salad.
Okay, let's move on.
2248
02:17:04,843 --> 02:17:10,265
And it's not just this war
between one person and the state.
2249
02:17:10,473 --> 02:17:16,396
It is everybody involved,
you know, and it was, like,
how could I forget?
2250
02:17:19,065 --> 02:17:21,067
Mom! Ha-ha-ha!
2251
02:17:27,908 --> 02:17:30,076
[GAIL LAUGHING]
2252
02:17:30,243 --> 02:17:32,245
GAIL:
I still feel like it's a dream.
2253
02:17:32,454 --> 02:17:36,041
I just talked to you Monday
and you didn't tell me nothing.
2254
02:17:36,249 --> 02:17:39,669
I wanted to.
Free man.
2255
02:17:41,379 --> 02:17:44,466
It's my suitcase. Check it out, pretty cool.
GAIL: I like that.
2256
02:17:44,674 --> 02:17:48,678
I called him yesterday and said,
"I got a little suitcase and it's all packed."
2257
02:17:48,887 --> 02:17:52,098
And he said,
"I've never had a suitcase before."
2258
02:17:53,391 --> 02:17:55,018
It's these things.
2259
02:17:56,895 --> 02:18:00,899
Gosh, I love you so much.
I love you too.
2260
02:18:01,566 --> 02:18:03,568
[Hr]
2261
02:18:05,362 --> 02:18:07,656
Every time I turn around,
you wanna talk to me.
2262
02:18:07,864 --> 02:18:12,327
Look, every time I turn around.
It's great. It's a great feeling.
2263
02:18:12,535 --> 02:18:15,038
I'm used to the guards
being around me all the time.
2264
02:18:15,246 --> 02:18:17,540
Every now and then,
I turn around, make sure,
2265
02:18:17,749 --> 02:18:20,335
you know, damn, is this really real?
2266
02:18:20,543 --> 02:18:23,004
Hey, man. How you doing, man?
2267
02:18:23,213 --> 02:18:27,092
JESSIE:
It's a blessing, you know,
to be here with my family and friends.
2268
02:18:28,051 --> 02:18:30,637
Last time I seen them,
we was all kids and everything.
2269
02:18:30,845 --> 02:18:32,973
And here we are, grown up now.
2270
02:18:33,723 --> 02:18:36,267
That's really what
kept me going over the years.
2271
02:18:36,476 --> 02:18:38,853
When are you gonna
come to the house and say hi?
2272
02:18:39,062 --> 02:18:40,647
JESSIE:
Prison is really hard.
2273
02:18:40,855 --> 02:18:45,777
You know, if I could stay out of prison,
I could go anywhere I want to, free man.
2274
02:18:45,986 --> 02:18:48,863
All I just got to do is, you know,
just stay out of trouble.
2275
02:18:49,072 --> 02:18:51,700
That's why I'm trying
to do things different in my life.
2276
02:18:52,742 --> 02:18:54,911
So I know I can do it.
2277
02:18:57,330 --> 02:19:01,668
LORRI:
I think we all had our mental image
of what this was gonna be at the end.
2278
02:19:01,876 --> 02:19:07,132
Which was three of these guys
walking out of the courtroom exonerated.
2279
02:19:08,383 --> 02:19:13,054
DAMIEN:
Everything I had in the prison,
I carried out in one small envelope.
2280
02:19:13,638 --> 02:19:15,974
Everything else,
when they told me I was leaving,
2281
02:19:16,141 --> 02:19:18,309
they said, "Pack up
whatever you wanna take."
2282
02:19:18,476 --> 02:19:21,479
I just threw it all in the garbage
and left it.
2283
02:19:24,566 --> 02:19:27,402
LORRI:
When he first left the courthouse,
he looked at me and said:
2284
02:19:27,610 --> 02:19:32,991
"it already feels like it's been such
a long time ago since I was in prison."
2285
02:19:33,199 --> 02:19:36,745
DAMIEN:
Within an hour of the time we were out,
it already felt that way.
2286
02:19:36,953 --> 02:19:39,998
And I think, in some ways,
maybe it's a little harder for Lorri
2287
02:19:40,165 --> 02:19:45,920
than it is for me because I've never had
a really solid foundation in my life.
2288
02:19:46,129 --> 02:19:50,133
When I was young, we were constantly
on the move, constantly on the go.
2289
02:19:50,341 --> 02:19:54,554
We never had a place that
we called home for long periods of time.
2290
02:19:54,763 --> 02:19:58,224
"Time to vamp up your wardrobe.
Fall is coming."
2291
02:19:58,433 --> 02:20:00,727
Yeah, we're gonna have
a early Halloween party
2292
02:20:00,935 --> 02:20:03,146
since we're gonna be gone
for October.
2293
02:20:03,354 --> 02:20:05,774
We're gonna do it
at the end of September.
2294
02:20:06,941 --> 02:20:10,653
Our time together now
is more gentle in a way.
2295
02:20:10,862 --> 02:20:13,782
What do you think about that stuff?
That fake spiderweb stuff?
2296
02:20:13,990 --> 02:20:15,033
I love it.
2297
02:20:15,241 --> 02:20:16,618
Think we should get it?
Yeah.
2298
02:20:16,826 --> 02:20:19,329
DAMIEN:
When you're in prison
you get three hours a week,
2299
02:20:19,537 --> 02:20:21,998
so you feel very desperate
and rushed.
2300
02:20:22,207 --> 02:20:25,835
Like you're trying to wring
every second out of it that you can.
2301
02:20:26,669 --> 02:20:31,299
And it's like being out here
and being together 24 hours a day,
2302
02:20:31,508 --> 02:20:36,471
you just feel like you're able to relax
into each other a little more.
2303
02:20:37,097 --> 02:20:39,474
LORRI:
There's a bit of grief.
You leave people you love.
2304
02:20:39,641 --> 02:20:41,851
You don't know when
you're gonna see them again.
2305
02:20:42,060 --> 02:20:44,020
If you can ever go back
to that place.
2306
02:20:44,229 --> 02:20:47,524
Because we don't plan
on going back to Arkansas.
2307
02:20:49,150 --> 02:20:51,569
DAMIEN:
I don't look at the political aspirations,
2308
02:20:51,778 --> 02:20:54,989
the greed, the evil,
the cruelty or anything else.
2309
02:20:55,198 --> 02:20:59,035
Because for me, it's over.
For me, I'm ready to move on.
2310
02:21:00,411 --> 02:21:03,706
LORRI:
When you first asked me about
the letters, I got them out of storage,
2311
02:21:03,915 --> 02:21:06,292
and it felt so foreign to me.
2312
02:21:07,752 --> 02:21:09,045
Thank you. You too.
2313
02:21:09,254 --> 02:21:11,464
LORRI:
So then we talked about
burning them all.
2314
02:21:11,631 --> 02:21:14,217
We thought the best thing to do
is take all the letters.
2315
02:21:14,384 --> 02:21:17,262
Just burn them, so they never--
No one will ever read them.
2316
02:21:17,470 --> 02:21:19,681
There's so many things,
it's so personal.
2317
02:21:19,848 --> 02:21:22,600
I happened to pull one out
that was about six months
2318
02:21:22,767 --> 02:21:26,437
into when we were writing to each other
and I thought, "That's not so bad."
2319
02:21:27,814 --> 02:21:31,693
And there are elements of it that
remind me of how we talk today, so...
2320
02:21:32,735 --> 02:21:35,738
"My dearest Lorri,
I love the letter I got from you today,
2321
02:21:35,947 --> 02:21:37,532
the one about us changing.
2322
02:21:37,740 --> 02:21:41,286
You were right,
we should be looking forward, not back.
2323
02:21:41,494 --> 02:21:44,080
[EDDIE VEDDER'S
"SATELLITE" PLAYING]
2324
02:21:44,289 --> 02:21:46,499
You give me the strength
to face anything,
2325
02:21:46,708 --> 02:21:49,502
but I also know
that not everyone is like you.
2326
02:21:49,711 --> 02:21:54,549
If they were-- If they were,
then everyone would be in love."
2327
02:21:55,008 --> 02:21:59,888
Right, well. "I love the way
Master and Margarita ends.
2328
02:22:00,096 --> 02:22:03,057
The way they get to spend
eternity together, alone.
2329
02:22:03,266 --> 02:22:06,019
That they are granted peace."
2330
02:22:06,227 --> 02:22:09,564
DAMIEN:
"And you are left to wonder
what adventures they'll have next."
2331
02:22:09,731 --> 02:22:12,317
♪ And don't you worry a'
2332
02:22:12,483 --> 02:22:14,777
♪ I believe your story a'
2333
02:22:14,944 --> 02:22:20,825
♪ You were put away
For something you didn't do U'
2334
02:22:20,992 --> 02:22:24,871
DAMIEN:
"That's the way I imagine you and I,
just saying goodbye to everyone
2335
02:22:25,079 --> 02:22:27,582
and beginning our own journey
2336
02:22:28,541 --> 02:22:32,503
to places that neither of us
have ever known before."
2337
02:22:58,154 --> 02:23:01,157
[BILL CARTER'S "ANYTHING
MADE OF PAPER" PLAYING]
2338
02:23:09,123 --> 02:23:12,335
♪ When I come to see you a'
2339
02:23:12,502 --> 02:23:15,213
♪ What will I bring? a'
2340
02:23:15,380 --> 02:23:17,924
♪ The wisdom of a poet r
2341
02:23:18,091 --> 02:23:20,510
♪ The color of a dream r
2342
02:23:20,677 --> 02:23:23,513
♪ And I leave with three roses 4'
2343
02:23:23,680 --> 02:23:26,349
♪ Made from a magazine ♪
2344
02:23:26,516 --> 02:23:31,896
♪ More beautiful to me
Than any flower in the spring a'
2345
02:23:32,063 --> 02:23:35,275
♪ And the feel of summer a'
2346
02:23:35,441 --> 02:23:38,194
♪ Turn into fall a'
2347
02:23:38,361 --> 02:23:42,323
♪ Anything made of paper
That's all S
2348
02:23:43,533 --> 02:23:45,618
♪ That's all a'
2349
02:23:46,577 --> 02:23:50,873
♪ That's all a'
2350
02:23:52,333 --> 02:23:55,044
♪ In the shadows of religion 4'
2351
02:23:55,211 --> 02:23:58,131
♪ Some think we find the truth a'
2352
02:23:58,298 --> 02:24:00,967
♪ But innocence is stricken 4'
2353
02:24:01,134 --> 02:24:03,428
♪ Without an ounce of proof I
2354
02:24:03,594 --> 02:24:06,723
♪ While the wheels of injustice a'
2355
02:24:06,889 --> 02:24:09,017
♪ Can turn mighty fast a'
2356
02:24:09,183 --> 02:24:12,437
♪ Another blood moon of October a'
2357
02:24:12,603 --> 02:24:15,231
♪ Will silently pass f
2358
02:24:15,398 --> 02:24:18,067
♪ With words of love a'
2359
02:24:18,234 --> 02:24:21,195
r In a telephone call a'
2360
02:24:21,362 --> 02:24:25,783
♪ And anything made of paper
That's all S
2361
02:24:26,617 --> 02:24:28,911
What's all I
2362
02:24:29,495 --> 02:24:33,958
♪ That's all a'
2363
02:24:34,542 --> 02:24:39,088
♪ Anything made of paper
That's all S
2364
02:25:05,448 --> 02:25:11,245
♪ In the inside world
Where bitterness grows a'
2365
02:25:11,412 --> 02:25:16,918
♪ Your heart has found the passion
To see what's in your soul a'
2366
02:25:17,085 --> 02:25:22,673
♪ And late at night
On an angel's wing f
2367
02:25:22,840 --> 02:25:28,846
♪ You hold on till tomorrow
To see what it brings I
2368
02:25:29,013 --> 02:25:34,352
♪ Any news
No matter how small a'
2369
02:25:34,519 --> 02:25:39,065
♪ And anything made of paper
That's all S
2370
02:25:39,816 --> 02:25:42,068
♪ That's all a'
2371
02:25:42,610 --> 02:25:47,115
♪ That's all a'
2372
02:25:47,698 --> 02:25:52,120
♪ Anything made of paper
That's all S
2373
02:26:13,182 --> 02:26:18,938
♪ In the inside world
Where bitterness grows a'
2374
02:26:19,105 --> 02:26:24,610
♪ Your heart has found the passion
To see what's in your soul a'
2375
02:26:24,777 --> 02:26:30,408
♪ And late at night
On an angel's wing f
2376
02:26:30,575 --> 02:26:36,539
♪ You hold on till tomorrow
To see what it brings I
2377
02:26:36,706 --> 02:26:42,211
♪ Any news
No matter how small a'
2378
02:26:42,378 --> 02:26:46,466
♪ And anything made of paper
That's all S
2379
02:26:47,675 --> 02:26:49,927
♪ That's all a'
2380
02:26:50,678 --> 02:26:52,805
♪ That's all N'